APR Tune - 162TSI - worth every $$

[Ozsko]

Since we don't get VW car-net offered here in Australia, we should be immune from that sort of monitoring.

The monitoring I was referring to is not done via car-net it is done via the workshop computer system.

[OZROD]

OK, my mistake I'll be going back to the APR tuners from now on so hopefully it still won't be a problem with my tune.

[Psych101]

According to APR the only way to detect there had been a tune (after flashing to stock) is the flash counter. They also point out this a grey area because the flash counter does not contain any information about the flash content.

According to Autoinstruct the jb4 tuning box can't be detected once it has been physically removed (although the wire tap would leave a physical mark). If there is compelling evidence otherwise please dont tell me because I want to believe! I assume other tuning boxes that operate similarly would be the same.

[Ozsko]

Call me a cynic but I doubt any company trying to sell a tuning product will even go close to admitting that VW would be able to detect that their product could be detected by VW. I would love to tune my car but due to circumstances it will always go to the same dealer for servicing as going anywhere else is not an option and I don't want to find out it has been flagged. It was this dealer that told me of the changes in the VW system.

[Psych101]

Call me a cynic but I doubt any company trying to sell a tuning product will even go close to admitting that VW would be able to detect that their product could be detected by VW. I would love to tune my car but due to circumstances it will always go to the same dealer for servicing as going anywhere else is not an option and I don't want to find out it has been flagged. It was this dealer that told me of the changes in the VW system.

It's also in VW's interests to tell you it can be detected.

Also, APR did say say it can and will void your warranty and were upfront about how.

[Ozsko]

It is a curious situation, I bet modified cars have gone through the system and VW either have not detected them, detected them and did not tell the owner, or detected the mod and done nothing, cross out whichever does not apply but with no information how would anyone know. Has anyone on this forum had the experience, you would think there would be at least one.

[tigger73]

Any reputable tuner will not guarantee that their tune is "undetectable". VW only has to change what parameters they check in the computer and it'll flag up every car that is tuned or modified. They'd only need to look at the peak torque and power figures to know that something has been changed from stock.

Safest to assume that if you tune it your car will be detected. Most people that tune will get their car serviced at reputable independent workshops and only take back to the dealer in the case of claimable warranty items/recalls.

[Psych101]

Any reputable tuner will not guarantee that their tune is "undetectable". VW only has to change what parameters they check in the computer and it'll flag up every car that is tuned or modified. They'd only need to look at the peak torque and power figures to know that something has been changed from stock.

Safest to assume that if you tune it your car will be detected. Most people that tune will get their car serviced at reputable independent workshops and only take back to the dealer in the case of claimable warranty items/recalls.

I am only talking about detection after an ecu has been flashed back to stock or when a tuning box is removed. Of course an active tune will be detected.

[tigger73]

I am only talking about detection after an ecu has been flashed back to stock or when a tuning box is removed. Of course an active tune will be detected.

I'm talking about the stored values in the ECU for peak torque and power and anything else that may get stored in other modules around the car. VW could easily store parameters in any one of a multitude of modules that could be used to tell if software/hardware that is non-standard has been installed on the car and is causing the car to run outside "normal" parameters.

It's really not that hard to do.

All I'm saying is that if you modifiy your car just assume that VW will be able to detect it as if the checking software doesn't pick it up today then tomorrow it may well do.

The dealerships will often turn a blind eye to modified cars, however if they were to repair a car and VW were to find out that the car was modified, then the dealer then may be liable for the cost of the work carried out under "warranty" if VW refuses to pay. So this is why dealers are a little cautious and don't want to get caught out paying for your repair bill.

The best course of action is to be open and honest and then nobody is trying to hide anything.

[Psych101]

I'm talking about the stored values in the ECU for peak torque and power and anything else that may get stored in other modules around the car. VW could easily store parameters in any one of a multitude of modules that could be used to tell if software/hardware that is non-standard has been installed on the car and is causing the car to run outside "normal" parameters.

It's really not that hard to do.

All I'm saying is that if you modifiy your car just assume that VW will be able to detect it as if the checking software doesn't pick it up today then tomorrow it may well do.

The dealerships will often turn a blind eye to modified cars, however if they were to repair a car and VW were to find out that the car was modified, then the dealer then may be liable for the cost of the work carried out under "warranty" if VW refuses to pay. So this is why dealers are a little cautious and don't want to get caught out paying for your repair bill.

The best course of action is to be open and honest and then nobody is trying to hide anything.

I think there is a bit of speculation there. I would rather not assume and I'm just interested in the facts.

[Psych101]

I think there is a bit of speculation there. I would rather not assume and I'm just interested in the facts.

Also, I don't think its reasonable for VW to deny a claim on a stage 1 tune when other VAG cars with similar drivetrains are running the same or more power

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

An ECU cannot simply store peak torque or peak power, however it will definitely store max values of sensors, such as map sensor showing up last max value of say 2bar of manifold pressure instead of 1bar.

That's probably the easiest way to determine if there have been changes to the software. And of course, the whole idea of a flash counter is definitely plausible too.

[Psych101]

An ECU cannot simply store peak torque or peak power, however it will definitely store max values of sensors, such as map sensor showing up last max value of say 2bar of manifold pressure instead of 1bar.

That's probably the easiest way to determine if there have been changes to the software. And of course, the whole idea of a flash counter is definitely plausible too.

Would the ecu receive that signal if you were using the jb4 that intercepts it and sends something else?

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

JB4 is essentially a signal bender, so say if you've added a bit more boost by applying a higher duty cycle to the wastegate and your MAP sensor now reads 1.2bar of boost instead of 1bar. Normally that would flag an error and the ECU would trim wastegate duty cycle OR just throw an error and cut ignition and RPM and prevent engine damage.

JB4 pretty much would receive the sensor voltage and lower it before your ECU reads it. So now running more boost the standard ECU thinks everything is fine. Generally MAP sensors (say a 3 bar absolute) would read 0.1 volts for 0 bar 4.5v for 3 bar in linear (depends on sensor scaling). Think of the JB4 as an advanced drop resistor to lower sensor voltages across different sensors.

[Ozsko]

I think there is a bit of speculation there. I would rather not assume and I'm just interested in the facts.

That's easy, stand outside a dealer one afternoon and get into a discussion with a few techs and ask them what they know and then get back to us. That is what I did though it was not deliberate, we were just having a chat and it came up in conversation.