MK8 Golf R release November 4

[rosslm]

Next week the MK8 Golf R is revealed looks like it will be 245kW 420Nm with advanced 4 wheel drive system should be interesting.

[Mr T.]

Arrives 2022. Wow that is a long wait.

2021 Volkswagen Golf R unveiled, Australian timing confirmed | CarAdvice


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[Ralfi]

Long wait, but impressions on the design are great. Love those wheels too.

[Ozsko]

Today's announcement 2021 Volkswagen Golf 8 priced from more than $30,000 drive-away

As I predicted some time ago the DSG is getting the boot for a torque converter box with 8 gears in it.

[genebaby]

The carryover engine and different gearbox has been known for a long time.

While the US won't get regular Golf's anymore with Mk8, they used to get the torque converter in those models previously. We are the US now.

[Ozsko]

The carryover engine and different gearbox has been known for a long time.

While the US won't get regular Golf's anymore with Mk8, they used to get the torque converter in those models previously. We are the US now.

My prediction is that VW will drop all DSG installations because the reason for its existence is no longer there.

[genebaby]

I can't remember what the deal is in Europe exactly but I do think they have DSG in all models, but worldwide all GTI and R Golf's will have DSG.

North America is also getting German built GTIs this time around.

[Sydneykid]

My prediction is that VW will drop all DSG installations because the reason for its existence is no longer there.

What's the "reason for its existence"?

Cheers
Gary

[Ozsko]

When the DSG was first made the small car manufacturers had a few problems, low powered cars was one, inefficient torque converters with limited gear numbers was another and the third was a market that was demanding autos at an ever increasing rate. Anyone who has driven an older automatic small car will understand what terrible things they were to drive and what fuel guzzlers they were. The DSG fixed those problems but now we have lock up converters, good electronic controlled TC autos that have more gears than either DSG or manual cars and are every bit as efficient as the DSG and motors are now more powerful as well.

[Jackson470]

Alot of manuals in Europe, but people normally choose DSG in the UK at least

[Sydneykid]

When the DSG was first made the small car manufacturers had a few problems, low powered cars was one, inefficient torque converters with limited gear numbers was another and the third was a market that was demanding autos at an ever increasing rate. Anyone who has driven an older automatic small car will understand what terrible things they were to drive and what fuel guzzlers they were. The DSG fixed those problems but now we have lock up converters, good electronic controlled TC autos that have more gears than either DSG or manual cars and are every bit as efficient as the DSG and motors are now more powerful as well.

No matter how "efficient" they get, torque converters always allow some rpm differential between the engine (higher) and the driven wheels (lower) some of the time. It is really the only reason for a torque converter to exist, to allow for that rpm difference. Which inevitably means more fuel is being used (less efficiently) at those times. Also less efficient is their shift speed, they can never remotely approach the gear change speed of a DSG that has preselected the next gear. In comparison, to facilitate the gear change, the auto has to unlock the torque converter, which being a fluid coupling is not rapid. Even less efficiency is evident in the torque converter auto due their engine braking ability compared to the direct connection of a DSG.

Engine wise I'm not sure it matters how much power they have or have not, a DSG will always transmit more of that power to the driven wheels more of the time. There is a real reason why they are utilised in almost all forms of race cars, where transmission power loss is unforgiveable. For the same reason GTi's and R's are staying with DSG's, performance.

BTW Packards had lock up torque converters in 1949, the common Hydramatics had lock up torque converters in 1981.

Personally my view of VW's Australia's decision (if they have in fact made it) has nothing whatsoever to do with efficiency, power or fuel economy. More to do with warranty claims, perceptions of the reliability of DSG gearboxes and customers expectations when they buy an "automatic".


Cheers
Gary

[genebaby]

They are giving us the less efficient drive train for the next generation because they don't need to provide anything else for our country.

Our laws don't require it, so they are giving countries who mandate it the food stuff.

Some people might be ok with this.

[Ozsko]

No matter how "efficient" they get, torque converters always allow some rpm differential between the engine (higher) and the driven wheels (lower) some of the time. It is really the only reason for a torque converter to exist, to allow for that rpm difference. Which inevitably means more fuel is being used (less efficiently) at those times. Also less efficient is their shift speed, they can never remotely approach the gear change speed of a DSG that has preselected the next gear. In comparison, to facilitate the gear change, the auto has to unlock the torque converter, which being a fluid coupling is not rapid. Even less efficiency is evident in the torque converter auto due their engine braking ability compared to the direct connection of a DSG.<br>
<br>
Engine wise I'm not sure it matters how much power they have or have not, a DSG will always transmit more of that power to the driven wheels more of the time. There is a real reason why they are utilised in almost all forms of race cars, where transmission power loss is unforgiveable. For the same reason GTi's and R's are staying with DSG's, performance.<br>
<br>
BTW Packards had lock up torque converters in 1949, the common Hydramatics had lock up torque converters in 1981.<br>
<br>
Personally my view of VW's Australia's decision (if they have in fact made it) has nothing whatsoever to do with efficiency, power or fuel economy. More to do with warranty claims, perceptions of the reliability of DSG gearboxes and customers expectations when they buy an "automatic".<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
Gary

The modern lock up low stall converter is by a huge magnitude a far better thing these day, far better low speed control and smoothness. Speed of gear changes, is 0.05 difference going to be noticed by anyone and the gear shift in either transmission in normal operation can't be felt anyway so the speed is irrelevant for all intents and purposes and both shift very fast. You ought to drive an EK Holden with a Hydramatic in it to see how good they were or a HR with a 2 speed powerglide, that was simply an awesome experience. Believe me a low powered car as these were is a horrible thing to drive and VW recognised that and needed a direct drive transmission. Lower powered 4 cylinder cars that VW were then producing was the direct driver of that decision and they had the precedent of Porsche to work from.

Electronic control of transmissions has shifted the approach to drive lines away from what we knew and had to endure. You would not believe the amount of wiring in a modern auto unless you saw one opened up. Manuals were rubbish and gear set limited to at the most 4 gears and autos without electronic control even worse than a manual. You are right though, warranty is the reason and it is an admission that the DSG is simply too problematic though I have never had an issue over three cars at all. Another reason is they can buy a ZF or similar so why keep pouring R&amp;D into a transmission that within the foreseeable future will become redundant in major markets in Europe and the US as more electric models are introduced. What the rest of the world finish up with is open for debate.

[Sydneykid]

The modern lock up low stall converter is by a huge magnitude a far better thing these day, far better low speed control and smoothness. Speed of gear changes, is 0.05 difference going to be noticed by anyone and the gear shift in either transmission in normal operation can't be felt anyway so the speed is irrelevant for all intents and purposes and both shift very fast. You ought to drive an EK Holden with a Hydramatic in it to see how good they were or a HR with a 2 speed powerglide, that was simply an awesome experience. Believe me a low powered car as these were is a horrible thing to drive and VW recognised that and needed a direct drive transmission. Lower powered 4 cylinder cars that VW were then producing was the direct driver of that decision and they had the precedent of Porsche to work from.

Electronic control of transmissions has shifted the approach to drive lines away from what we knew and had to endure. You would not believe the amount of wiring in a modern auto unless you saw one opened up. Manuals were rubbish and gear set limited to at the most 4 gears and autos without electronic control even worse than a manual. You are right though, warranty is the reason and it is an admission that the DSG is simply too problematic though I have never had an issue over three cars at all. Another reason is they can buy a ZF or similar so why keep pouring R&amp;D into a transmission that within the foreseeable future will become redundant in major markets in Europe and the US as more electric models are introduced. What the rest of the world finish up with is open for debate.

One of the cars I learnt to drive on was an EK waggon 253 auto, I remember very well.

I'm not sure about the R&D issue. The rest of the VAG group, particularly Audi, Bugatti, Lamborghini and Porsche, are very much into DSG's and I don't see that changing. So the tech is flow down as far as VW is concerned, same for Seat, Skoda etc.

On the speed of gear change (auto versus DSG), there's a lot of us running DSG change software of one type or another and the shift speed difference is very noticeable, even on the daily commute. In a race lap time sense, the 35% DSG speed up in the current GT3 Porsche is worth several tenths of second per lap and the previous version was no slouch. The average "automatic" driver won't even notice I am sure, but some of us will.

Same here, 6 x VW's with DSG's in the family over 9 years and only 1 issue. My Polo GTi (of course it had to be mine) needed a warranty replacement mechatronic unit, due to the solenoid (electronics) failure. No mechanical issues, possibly because everyone in my family knows the difference between a DSG and an "automatic".

Cheers
Gary

[Mr T.]

Rory has a great review...

NEW VW Golf R Review: Has The Golf Reached Its Peak? | 4K - YouTube


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