MK6 -v- MK7 : Golf GTI

[bazzle]

Good read.

Sadly quote" Finally, it’s well worth noting that the cost for me to update from MK6 Golf GTI to Golf 7 GTI was $13,500 … in other words … peanuts. "

May be peanuts to you but a years play money for me

Can you add the 'conduit" link please. will it work on an mkv 2 door R32?

Edit: A friend who is the service manager for a large dealer dropped off an mk7 gti last night for me to try out

[bazzle]

OK my thoughts from an mkV R32 owner on the mk7 GTI manual. (I get to drive lots of cars in my job inc the latest VWs.)
Very nice car. A torque surge at about 2400rpm gives it a nice sporty feel. Same surge makes it very hard to keep power on in a tight sweeper as front end was scrabbling for grip with "yellow" light flashing at me.
All the same could be driven very swiftly with a balanced throttle.
Steering was very good with precise turn in and a nice feedback thru the wheel. (better then my R32)
Brakes were good, less noise on bumps and thumps. Has quite a lot of skip and patter on bends with bitumen that is not dead smooth (19" tyres?)
Driving along the Eastern freeway I found constant minor steering correction was required to stay on a straight path. The steering was very touchy in this example.
I tried a few hard take-offs from lights with the traction control off but the noise from the enging trying to jump in and out of the subframe put an end to that.
It then rained. This is not a car that likes anything other than a dry road imo. The power hit just before each gear change (manual in this one) I found tiring. Even keeping up with mums and dads in their Maxda's and commodores from traffic lights created thumps from the front end as the traction control came in and out over the white lines.
Very nice car, sporty feel, good dynamics, would suit someone who needs to feel a turbo pull every time they took off
If only I could make my R32 turn in the same ..............

[WhiteJames]

Weight

Yes … the sharper turn-in of the lighter GTI is precisely why I went for the GTI, and in particular, the standard Manual Trans (non PP) Golf GTI. I didn’t fancy lugging an extra 50kgs over the front axle, where the GTI PP has extra weight of the DSG box, larger brakes (extra unsprung weight) and mechanical LSD diff.

The GTI PP and Golf 7 R will pull with greater efficiency out of corners, but the lighter standard non PP manual trans GTI will get into corners with greater ease & alacrity. Additionally, the standard manual GTI has the softest springs up front due to less weight over the front axle, allowing for the lighter front end to lean on the front sidewalls of the tyres providing extra bite & turn-in into corners over and above the heavier PP GTI and Golf 7 R.

In this respect, like the preceding MKV R32, I believe the PP GTI and Golf 7 R will be more blunt instruments for everyday public roadway driving in terms of entering corners up until apex.

One of the latest reviews on the Audi S3 with adaptive dampers indicated that the softer medium setting (not comfort or sport) allowed the chassis of the Audi S3 to also lean more so the front edge of the tyres could bite more effectively during public roadway driving at sane speeds … you’d pretty much get this all of the time with the lightest standard lesser spec Golf 7 GTI with manual trans.

On another note:

I agree with what some say in that the Golf GTI power-plant has been held back to a degree of outright bang, fizz and turbo spool delivery. I think that this is in keeping with the refined sportiness of the Golf as a vehicle in terms of target buyers, un-like a Mazda 3 MPS power delivery with similar torque punching through the front wheels.

Alternatively, I think that Volkswagen need a bit of room to move towards that racy feeling & tuning for the forthcoming Golf 7 R, which will still be refined, but with a bit more bang, fizz and spooling to the power delivery.

To answer your question:

The initial link to the Bunnings Irrigation 4mm and 6mm conduit for the B pillar banging noise is in the MK6 section of this website forum towards the end. I sent this link to Ray, who investigated further on the US forums to find pics of other owners inserting the conduit within the door seal rubbers.

I can’t see why it cannot be done on a MKV Golf, so long as the rubber seals are the same. Ray says that you should not have to do this on a 60K sports/luxury euro hatchback (R32 or MK6 R), but then again, the Golf chassis was not designed to be a bespoke Golf R sports vehicle, with majority of sales being the mum & dad garden variety lesser Golf variants.

Reading the latest EVO magazine on my iPad where they compare the Toyota GT86 to the Golf 7 GTI, EVO hit the nail on the head. The Toyota GT86 is more fun on the race track, where the Golf 7 GTI is a bit inert, with the Golf GTI being better everywhere else and faster in the real-world. No many purchase a Golf to drive on the track. Toyota GT86 Coupe received 4/5 stars. The Golf 7 GTI 4.5/5 stars rating. Same reason I went for the Golf GTI over the twin BRZ/GT 86 coupes – that latest remaining driver engagement of the twin coupes is not worth the impracticality of such a vehicle.

Oh yeah ... the Golf 7 GTI DSG managed to come within a few tenths of the MK6 Golf R for lap time around a tight & twisting racetrack according to Motor Magazine (Aus). No bad for a FWD.

B-Pillar Squeaking (MK6 Golf) thread: http://www.vwwatercooled.com/forums/...-41289-24.html

WJ

[Cantgiveyouthat]

James, I commend your ability to be objective. Top marks, as ever.

Ps. I had a go in the new s3 today. You should try it rather than relying on Ray.

[WhiteJames]

Std GTI -v- PP GTI

Here's an autoexpress.co.uk review between an auto Standard GTI -v- MTrans PP GTI. PP GTI was 1.6 seconds faster around their U.K. test track and held the line much better than the Std GTI. Both autoexpress & Motor Mag journos are right in saying that the MTrans Golf 7 GTI is the more engaging of the two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5jVPZUXOYM

I think it would be difficult to score a test drive in an Audi S3 showing up in a brand new Golf 7 GTI. Any salesman worth their salt would see a tyre-kicker looking for a test drive. Ray has a MK6 Golf R, which would improve your chances of a test drive, although I'm still waiting on him to compare his MK6 R to my Golf 7 GTI. Ray did conduct a drive around the tight hills & twists to gauge the irrigation conduit upgrade to his MK6 Golf R ... the conduit seems to have cut down the B-Pillar noises.

WJ

[WhiteJames]

125i -v- A250 -v- Volvo -v- GTI

This is a Paul Tan review between the BMW, Merc A250 Sport, Volvo and Golf 7 GTI. Lap times are recorded around the 8-9 min mark, with the Golf 7 GTI the fastest on the track & comfortable on the road:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddyg8j1FLWI

Cheers.

[slam]

I tried a few hard take-offs from lights with the traction control off but the noise from the enging trying to jump in and out of the subframe put an end to that.
It then rained. This is not a car that likes anything other than a dry road imo. The power hit just before each gear change (manual in this one) I found tiring. Even keeping up with mums and dads in their Maxda's and commodores from traffic lights created thumps from the front end as the traction control came in and out over the white lines.

Sounds like axle tramp is still a problem with the Mk7 GTI ? It is really bad with my Mk6 GTI - my windscreen phone holder falls off frequently from the "jack hammering".

I believe the A3 1.8 Quattro is very similarly priced to the Mk7 GTI. I wonder if the 1.8 Quattro is the more enjoyable car to drive in terms of getting off the line quickly from standstill?

Then again, I've seen Youtube videos of the Mk7 GTI accelerating with WOT without any axle tramp at all?

[AdamD]

Sounds like axle tramp is still a problem with the Mk7 GTI ? It is really bad with my Mk6 GTI - my windscreen phone holder falls off frequently from the "jack hammering".

I believe the A3 1.8 Quattro is very similarly priced to the Mk7 GTI. I wonder if the 1.8 Quattro is the more enjoyable car to drive in terms of getting off the line quickly from standstill?

Then again, I've seen Youtube videos of the Mk7 GTI accelerating with WOT without any axle tramp at all?

Whether you get axle tramp or not depends on a whole range of conditions, such as:

• Tyre condition and pressures
• Tyre size and type
• Road surface and conditions, incline etc
• Shock/damper type/setting/condition
• Temperature/humidity
• Launch technique
• Car loading (passengers, fuel)
• Etc

You may have experienced bad axle tramp with your mk6, but it's not been an issue with mine at all.

[slam]

Hi Adam, some comments to the points you raised:

• Tyre condition and pressures – approx 50% worn. Axle tramp has been there since day 1, so going from brand new tyres to 50% worn hasn’t made a difference. Pressure: 36 psi

• Tyre size and type - 225/45/17 Bridgestone Turanza ER300. As an aside, I bought the car brand new and it came with these Turanza tyres. No idea why the dealer put touring grade tyres on a GTI

• Road surface and conditions, incline etc - Obviously, axle tramp is more pronounced in the wet, but it happens in the dry as well. And as expected, more pronounced going up hill

• Shock/damper type/setting/condition - Absolutely stock standard. Car is 2.5 years old with 30,000km, so condition should be OK. Amount of axle tramp has not changed in the last 2.5 years

• Temperature/humidity - Happens at all temperatures / humidity. Have not noticed any correlation

• Launch technique - I never dump the clutch. I let the clutch engage and get the car rolling on part throttle first, then apply close to WOT. Axle tramp would come in from around 4,00rpm in first gear. Same with rolling starts in first gear - car pulls quite well in first gear up until around 4,000rpm, then the jack hammering starts and I have to back off

• Car loading (passengers, fuel) Fuel load does not make a difference. Axle tramp very noticeable with driver only. Is less severe with driver and front passenger (extra weight therefore more traction), but still happens.

As mentioned before, mine axle tramps from rolling starts as well. Typical example - when accelerating after turning right at a round about. Very mild if in second gear, but very severe when in first gear, from around 4,000rpm onwards.

Is yours a manual as well? What tyres / size / pressure do you have? Any mods to suspension? Would like to understand the difference.

[Cantgiveyouthat]

Hi slam, I think you are in the wrong part of this forum. This thread is more particularly about how the base model GTI poops all over all before it. If you can re-write your thoughts on the basis of a European review of the superiority of the GTI against an f1-11 (between 80-110kph) you will get more traction. If you can shoehorn a sly dig at the mark VI R all the better. Otherwise top internetting. PS Roy is seething.

[AdamD]

• Tyre condition and pressures – approx 50% worn. Axle tramp has been there since day 1, so going from brand new tyres to 50% worn hasn’t made a difference. Pressure: 36 psi

• Tyre size and type - 225/45/17 Bridgestone Turanza ER300. As an aside, I bought the car brand new and it came with these Turanza tyres. No idea why the dealer put touring grade tyres on a GTI

The tyres you're using are not known for their high-performance qualities or road grip. This will certainly be a contributing factor. I'm surprised they were factory-fitted; Turanza weren't a factory fitment for the first few years of GTI production that I was aware of. (My car was fitted with Bridgestone RE050s, but I got rid of those in short order and now run much stickier and quieter Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 2s in 225/40 R18.)

I normally run quite high tyre pressures (suit the tyres I'm using) - around 40psi. However for better grip when launching hard, many people subscribe to the theory that lower pressures are a lot better (again, this is somewhat tyre-dependent). Guys on the strip will often drop their pressures into the low 20s or even into the teens to get a great 60-foot time. Obviously don't do this on the road, but consider trying a marginally lower pressure in your front tyres for a while (eg 32psi) and see if it makes a difference.

• Shock/damper type/setting/condition - Absolutely stock standard. Car is 2.5 years old with 30,000km, so condition should be OK. Amount of axle tramp has not changed in the last 2.5 years

• Launch technique - I never dump the clutch. I let the clutch engage and get the car rolling on part throttle first, then apply close to WOT. Axle tramp would come in from around 4,00rpm in first gear. Same with rolling starts in first gear - car pulls quite well in first gear up until around 4,000rpm, then the jack hammering starts and I have to back off

I see from your signature that your car is fitted with DCC. Try your launches in Comfort mode and see if that improves the situation, and compare and contrast with Sport. Overly firm (or overly soft) dampers can lead to wheel hop. Don't leave it in Normal mode.

If you're applying WOT in first gear (especially in a low-grip situation like a wet road), you're going to get wheelspin. Depending on how much wheelspin you get, the characteristics of the tyre, suspension loading and damping etc etc, the wheel will only spin so much before wheel hop can set in. (With a stage 1 or greater GTI, WOT anywhere in first gear - wet or dry - is really not a sensible option. A stock car is better - power-down is really quite good considering, largely due to weight - but it's still not perfect.) A front-wheel drive car will lift its nose as it accelerates and weight transfers rearward; this unloads the tyres just as you're applying more throttle and the engine reaches peak torque and power. Not an ideal situation. You're not going to get nasty wheel hop and axle tramp if you don't let the wheelspin get out of control - you need to be aware of it and apply throttle judiciously, otherwise you're just wasting your car's accelerative energy in wheelspin. A bit of slip is okay, as long as wheel speed is close to vehicle speed; when there's a bit variance is when you have problems. Remember also that once the wheels are spinning, it requires less power to keep them spinning than if they had maintained traction (which means that if you're gentle early, you can apply more throttle later and get a better result than had you applied constant throttle right through first gear.)

• Temperature/humidity - Happens at all temperatures / humidity. Have not noticed any correlation

• Car loading (passengers, fuel) Fuel load does not make a difference. Axle tramp very noticeable with driver only. Is less severe with driver and front passenger (extra weight therefore more traction), but still happens.

As mentioned before, mine axle tramps from rolling starts as well. Typical example - when accelerating after turning right at a round about. Very mild if in second gear, but very severe when in first gear, from around 4,000rpm onwards.

Temperature and humidity affect the coefficient of grip of the tyres, and also the road surface. Changes can be minor, or they can be significant depending on the circumstances. You may, or may not, notice a difference depending on the road and the day.

Rolling start versus standing start makes no difference - you will be able to get into a situation where the weight transfers rearwards unloading the front wheels, and you reach peak torque/power, irrespective of whether you were moving or stationary before you started.

Is yours a manual as well? What tyres / size / pressure do you have? Any mods to suspension? Would like to understand the difference.

Mine's a DSG; tyre details above. I run stock suspension and do not have DCC fitted to my car.

As was discussed in the other thread, I wouldn't be surprised if the problem you're having is the engine moving around on soft engine mounts - particularly if this behaviour sets in immediately without some period of lead-in wheelspin first. There are quite a few things you can do to address this, and you can also get your mounts checked as well just to make sure they're not cracked or damaged.

And now, back on topic.

[slam]

Thanks for the most comprehensive reply Adam !

[AdamD]

Thanks for the most comprehensive reply Adam !

No dramas mate.

[WhiteJames]

2,000 gbp

Ray has test driven the new Golf 7 GTI (DSG) while his MK6 R was in for fixed price service ($400). He didn't say much in his SMS, but indicated that the MK6 Golf R still offered benefits. Ray reckons that Audi's are for old people and that he will look at an Audi when his is 60 years of age. I disagree.

The Golf 7 R is apparently 2,000 GBP less than the Audi S3 in the U.K.

Here's a demo supplied by autoexpress.co.uk of a Golf 7 R doing a bit of drifting on a closed frozen Swiss Lake (or is that Swedish Lake?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_LVUuGNW_A

Here's another review ... this time a Golf 7 PP GTI that offers some good shots of the vehicle, if nothing else:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylROYGM-eQE

Can't say I've had any major issue with front wheel hop in either the MK6 Golf GTI or Golf 7 GTI.

WJ

[Cantgiveyouthat]

Ray certainly does a fair few kilometres round the shire. It must be difficult to remember all this stuff sometimes. James, I am really sorry, but you strike me as Mr Bean with a moderately fast car (albeit base model).