Golf R in Motor Mag this month in Perfomance Comparo

[weewilly]

Can't see how a DSG box would improve car's balance and handling to be honest... It would improve the 0-100 km/h time, no doubt, but that's about it. To say that the DSG is the best setup for the R is simply bizarre in my opinion. Unless you buy it for drag strip racing, that is.
Oh, and one more thing: real hot hatches are still manual and really passionate drivers still chose to drive manual.

spoken by someone without question that has never driven DSG. Those new fangled gadgets will never fly.

[sabloke]

I have and didn't like it. Maybe only because I'm a cotrol freak though Seriously now, you guys are talking the R down when saying that only one optioned with the wunderbox is a performance car...

[Corey_R]

Can't see how a DSG box would improve car's balance and handling to be honest... It would improve the 0-100 km/h time, no doubt, but that's about it. To say that the DSG is the best setup for the R is simply bizarre in my opinion. Unless you buy it for drag strip racing, that is.
Oh, and one more thing: real hot hatches are still manual and really passionate drivers still chose to drive manual.

The problem with the Golf, is that VW don't seem to care about manual gearboxes anymore. It's rubbish.

The video that shakespeare mentioned is the VW Golf R - DSG versus manual by autocar.co.uk
As you can see, on an average UK B road which is damp, the DSG gets a 5.7 second 0 to 100 time in EACH of the 3 runs. 100% repeatable and consistent.
Yet in the manual, even though he's loading it up against the handbrake and then doing flat shifts (which is exactly how experienced drag racers do it btw), gets a 6.4, 6.6 and 6.3.

Whilst I've been driving manuals all my life (except for when owning DSGs), I am not anywhere near good enough to do flat shifts, so my times would be much worse

As for the DSG making the car better handling, the ability to change gears without removing your hands from the wheel and with no interruption in power means you can shift mid corner without upsetting the balance of the car etc - hence there is no reason to be able to do things like "hold the car at the endline" like you may have to with a manual. And before yet another person says that "real cars" still are manuals and "real drivers" still drive manuals, I fully admit I'm not Michael Schumacher! But then even most talented race drivers can't shift manual cars quicker than sequentials or dual-clutch gearboxes either! Hence why a manual hasn't been used in F1 or Indycar for decades and not even WRC or V8 Supercars etc for years (maybe now decades too!).

So I agree with REXman completely. Whilst these magazines still define the "performance model" in antiquated ways such as "it must be manual only", then Volkswagen will not be able to compete. Volkswagen, like every top-tier motorsport team in the world, has invested in newer, better, faster technologies. The DSG is what should be in reviews like this.

As noted in the MOTOR Hot Tuner Challenge this year, the two APR Golf entries got beaten up due to their use of manual gearboxes too. The APR R has now been sold and a DSG R purchased. I can't wait to see what Guy_H is able to do with it once it arrives

Seriously now, you guys are talking the R down when saying that only one optioned with the wunderbox is a performance car...

This is exactly what I am saying, and have been saying for months. And you know what. EVERY SINGLE magazine performance results thus far is proving me correct

[REXman]

Can't see how a DSG box would improve car's balance and handling to be honest...

It does actually help balance. The effect of coming up to, going through or leaving a corner might involve gear changes.

In a manual, the stomping of a clutch and hooking into the next gear can be done fairly quick (but not as quick as DSG), and it will always upset the balance of the car.

The DSG changes gears so fast that the is virtually no loss of boost pressure and no upsetting of the chassis through a given bend.

Throw in the dynamic chassis control with it's improved steering feel..

[sabloke]

Let's hope that Ford and Renault Sport will never use similar gearboxes then because the R might fall short again, with or without DSG...
I also wonder where the AWD setup's superiority went? Is it for straight lines only?

[REXman]

Beat me to it.

[pologti18t]

T
So I agree with REXman completely. Whilst these magazines still define the "performance model" in antiquated ways such as "it must be manual only", then Volkswagen will not be able to compete. Volkswagen, like every top-tier motorsport team in the world, has invested in newer, better, faster technologies. The DSG is what should be in reviews like this.

As noted in the MOTOR Hot Tuner Challenge this year, the two APR Golf entries got beaten up due to their use of manual gearboxes too. The APR R has now been sold and a DSG R purchased. I can't wait to see what Guy_H is able to do with it once it arrives

They just tested like with like.... And VW supplied the car specified as it was.

Whether a DSG R would have been faster is unknown as Warren Luff is a pretty good wheel man.

But speed was only part of the equation... lap times, real world driving and driver involvement were the others.

[Corey_R]

I also wonder where the AWD setup's superiority went? Is it for straight lines only?

Lol... AWD has only ever been superior in straight lines

It's slower around corners, and it's slower braking (both due to weight). RWD is the optimal tarmac format except for (complete) stop start action, or the wet. Even in the wet, AWD doesn't always give you enough of an advantage to offset the added weight and drivetrain loses.

Sure, Gozilla beat our V8 Commodores and Falcons back in the day... but lol, compare the "technology" and performance levels of that GTR to the Commodores and Falcons of that era. In the Japan arena where Nissan actually had some decent competition from cars like the Supras and NSX's, Nissan used RWD for the GTR, only sometimes putting in AWD when they knew the entire race would be sufficiently wet and the track had lots of slow speed corners.

Porsche 911 Turbos are AWD etc but it's a "daily driver". Their track oriented 911's are all RWD.

[Corey_R]

Whether a DSG R would have been faster is unknown as Warren Luff is a pretty good wheel man.

It's not at all an unknown. Warren Luff is a great driver. But as I said, so are every single Indycar and F1 drivers for the past several decades. None of those drivers are good enough to make a traditional manual as quick as an automated manual, so all the teams would give their drivers exactly that - automated manuals.

Traditional manuals have not been faster in racing since... I don't know, even as a child in the mid 80's when I started watching F1 and Indy they'd both had already abandoned them. The only people who still think traditional manuals are the "performance choice" appear to be Motor Magazine journalists and car enthusiasts who claim to be "real car enthusiasts who need real gearboxes".

Ask Warren Luff what type of gearboxes were in his race cars when he was in the top levels

Actually... there is a top level motorsport still using traditional manuals. NASCAR!
They use pushrod V8s
They use carburetors!
They only switched to unleaded from leaded in 2008
Their major sponsor was a cigarette company until 2005!
And they use a 4 speed traditional manual, which apart from on the road courses, they do everything they can with the "rear gear" so that they can accelerate into 4th and then not have to change it gears during the "green flag racing" - because even they know that it's quicker not to have to change gears in a traditional manual! lol

Go manuals

(p.s. I'm not putting down NASCAR - they may appear on the surface to be antiquated, but their racing is brilliant!)

[Ideo]

Or, some of us just prefer manuals because of personal preference.

It seems the only people going on about gearbox choice are those with DSG. But perhaps I'm the only person in Australia that is getting a manual R

[Tim]

faster ≠ more fun

[sabloke]

Faster in corners=more fun!

[Tim]

Faster in corners=more fun!

ok you got me! fwd has better turn in. so fwd is more fun yeah?

[sabloke]

I don't really care what it is as long as it's chuckable
On the other hand, can't stand being told that AWD or RWD is always better than FWD. Not always the case as it turns out.

It is wrong to compare the R, that in my view is a GT, to hot hatches like RS250 and RS that are built with track days in mind. Isn't it?

[Corey_R]

Yeah, I agree guys. Faster doesn't always mean better and/or more fun.

And don't get me wrong, if you've tried the DSG and still prefer manual, then go for it - we're all entitled to our preferences.
That doesn't change the fact that automated manuals are quicker than traditional manuals though. Nor the fact that in the GTI and the R, the automated manual is a significant advantage for "timed performance".

Faster doesn't even mean more fun when you're a spectator! I'd watch NASCAR over F1 any day. NASCAR is way more fun than F1