Motor Magazine - BFYB 2010

[Corey_R]

If someone wants to start a Tiguan vs GTI thread, feel free to discuss it in there (nicely, so it doesn't get deleted like the last one). However, since a Tiguan was not in this review, lets leave that topic alone too!

It's more like 10k, you have to compare base model to base model.

Can end up being more if you go overboard on options too.

Either way both are good cars and depends if you want to spend the extra and the GTI would be just as good 90% of the time and better around town.

I was talking about my situation, and the difference was about $4000, as all the options that come standard in the R, I would've added to the GTI anyway.

[ethosguy]

IMO BFYB nailed it.

Subarus are softly sprung, with insufficient damping and have brakes that don't sustain even a moderate go...I've got one and modded it to bring it in line with the advertised niche...spent about $10k on a very targeted upgrade program. Suspension, brakes & throttle response/lag. I did these within my insurance companies rules. An STI would have been a better option at the time if I really understood and my wife would have allowed the extra initial spend, insurance costs and I could have a 5 door hatch body (at the time).

Subarus are fragile from a $$$/flogging and I realised this early in my ownership. Again the brakes disapeared in messy expensive dust, clutches/gearboxes don't endure performance driving. Clutches overheat, 'boxes break, syncros wear/bend...mine is used with a very tempered hand which kinda spoils the performance car experience. Did anyone notice the comment about the tailshaft almost hitting the road during launch??? Sounds like things haven't improved much since 2003. Potential; yeh, but don't use it! I was suprised and maybe a little heartened last year when the ugly duckling got up; this year they revealed the flaws they should have included last year.

In stock form a GTi is a cracker drive, but is FWD and will always be FWD. And there is plenty of evidence that front drivers can be punted along very quickly indeed: If that's your thing?! Really, ultimately, it is bracketed, has a finite celing for entertainment or power development. It will can never attack an uphill hairpin without waiting for traction. A GTi will never hunkerdown through a corner loading the outside rear tyre with a winding on of opposite lock and feel, well, magical. On the public roads you have to commit a FWD to a corner before you can see through it which takes away the buffer to respond to the unknown. OK, growing up driving rear drive rally cars probably forever skews my opinion of what feels right.

Golf R is cheaper than an STI (ok granted, not tested) , better looking, better feeling, more robust(? it didn't draw comment of tailshafts stretching it's mounts to within milliseconds of disaster) and with a Stage 1 flash and a Haldex controller (also not within BFYB rules) has a sufficient grunt and degree of rear torque bias I won't get, ever, in a GTi, or my 03 WRX. All for a very reasonable price No sun roof or fancy options list ambitions here)...No need for damper/spring replacement until flogged out...how many Km's do VAG ACC dampers last, gerneral road service? Probably better than 45000Km-ish it got from my too soft Subaru parts??? Anyone got some experience to offer?

VAG brakes are getting a pasting, which would be solved on first replacement set of pads & disks. Normal running cost item. I carried the original WRX pads and disks to 60000Km after an initial 20k enjoymentshowed, let's say, issues.

Just leaving the ESP nanny? Anyone heard of software retunes? Or, 'blown electrical' circuits that allow entertainment...if my Tiguan is similar to the calibration on any of the mid priced performance offerings by VAG it can interfere quite early. I get brake tugging ESP overrides on dirt roads with a trailer in tow (dirt bike in a box) and almost no steering correction needed to be wound on? Granted, if left unchecked by driver or driver aid the entourage would end up untidly in the scenery. Does the trailer sensing re-cal the ESP to a lower tolerance? I never get to drive the Tiguan w/out trailer or wife on loose surfaces so I don't know how sensitive the ESP calibration might otherwise be. Eitherway, it doesn't sound very tolerant or sideslip.

BFYB the GTi is a great win, but my plans are still towards an (a?) R...for sure.

Cheers
Ethosguy

[triode12]

I did back to back test drives of the GTI (DSG), R (DSG) and BMW135i (triptronic) yesterday just to confirm or perhaps alter my earlier experiences of the first two cars. Drove the 135i for the first time yesterday.

I came away with the same conclusions of the stock VW vehicles. The new GTI is tad clinical and has lost some of the eagerness/edgyness of the MKV GTI. IMO, the new GTI is no longer as fun to drive as it's predecessor. Is it technically a better car? yes it is but in the process of refining it, VW has removed the thing that made the MKV GTI so special (the fun factor). It is now a boring drive in stock form. Funnily enough, the rorty engine note of the GTI seemed louder in cabin than the R (probably due to the electronic enhancement built into the firewall). The GTI power delivery was also hesitant low down and made take offs from stand still slightly jerky, even my wife who could feel it as a passenger.

The R on the other hand feels more like the MKV GTI- it is still has that bull terrier feel about it, and it is eagar and raring to go almost egging you to give it more stick. I didn't feel that the turbo lag was that pronounced. In fact if you want to know what turbo lag feels like, you should drive my stock Pirelli.The in cabin noise of the exhaust is more subdued than the GTI only till the revs hit 5-6000rpms then the R screams like a banshee with loud pops of the turbo between gear changes. The engine didn't sound strained and power deliver was smooth as (in the whole rev range)

Driving the 135i was a bit of let down. I was expecting a small car with a 3L twin-turbo inline six to better either VW but boy was I surprised. I drove the 135i through the same circuit and it felt heavy and cumbersome in comparison to the R. Steering was heavy at low speeds and it felt twitchy/floaty at higher speeds. The engine felt like it was straining to get it up to 100km/hr (engine felt underpowered) and it certainly didn't feel it had gobs of power that it should have. The R in comparison got to 100km/hr w/o showing signs of strain and was more composed on the twisties than the 135i was. At almost twice the price, the 135i was certainly not twice the car - not even half. It also did not feel as nimble as the R, it felt alot heavier than it's 1490kg weight. In fact, my impression of the 135i was that it was closer to the GTI than the R. i.e. clinical and boring. And on a demo car with only 185kms on the clock, it already had a rattle on the passengers side door! So much for BMW quality. Perhaps the one I test drove was a dud (I dunno).

So the Golf R is IMO the best fun for your buck. All you need is a Stg1 tune to rid it of the small vestiges of turbo lag and you'd be in driver's seventh heaven.


My 2cents.

[Tux]

I've just read the BFYB and was surprised to read how 'average' the GTI performed. Not to say that 1'13" around Wakefield is average though. Just one tenth of a second behind the Clio btw.. The R was very quick for a stock car at 1'11".. I suspect that helped the GTI a bit actually due to the 20% 'weighting' of the lap time. Having said that the judges score might have been more realistic had they dropped off the top and bottom ranks which would have gotten rid of Cockburn's 'bias'. Only my opinion..

Anyhow, I'm loving my GTI more and more each day and love opening the garage door to see it's beauty. I'm a happy owner and that's what's important to me. I just couldn't imagine opening the garage door and seeing a 'Clio' every day... and the Chrysler won't fit in my garage anyway...

[dave_r]

My 2cents.

Good writeup, I'd have to agree with you.

I've just read the BFYB and was surprised to read how 'average' the GTI performed.

Just part of the BFYB formula. Not the worst and not the best but put the dollar figures in front and there really isn't a better all rounder available.

[triode12]

Anyhow, I'm loving my GTI more and more each day and love opening the garage door to see it's beauty. I'm a happy owner and that's what's important to me.

At the end of the day, this is all that counts really. As long as you are happy, to Hell with what others think of the choice/s you've made.

[G-rig]

The R should be more bang for more buck.

At the end of the day i'd be happy with either, but if I were spending a lot I'd get an S3 as it would feel like a more expensive luxury car.

[Tux]

At the end of the day, this is all that counts really. As long as you are happy, to Hell with what others think of the choice/s you've made.

Ed Zachary!

[mycl]

Some data to pour over for those comparing the 135i to golf r.... but unfortunately its in german!

http://img180.imageshack.us/f/74025306.jpg

http://img32.imageshack.us/f/48571997.jpg

[shakespeare]

At the end of the day, this is all that counts really. As long as you are happy, to Hell with what others think of the choice/s you've made.

Absolutely! Well said, couldn't agree more with this

I just couldn't imagine opening the garage door and seeing a 'Clio' every day... and the Chrysler won't fit in my garage anyway...

LOL I felt this way when I test drove the Megane 225 a few years ago! And I don't think the Chrysler would fit into too many peoples garages.

[REXman]

The R should be more bang for more buck.

At the end of the day i'd be happy with either, but if I were spending a lot I'd get an S3 as it would feel like a more expensive luxury car.

I'm different in that way. If I wanted an S3 I would have bought one. But I liked the R better, and as far as I know the S3 and R are very similar mechanically.

As far as class goes though, I wouldn't think of the S3 as something inaccessible to an R driver. If I wanted real differentiated class I'd get an M3 or a C63, or something where there is a clear difference, not trivial badge issues and 15k difference..

As someone who hasn't owned a VW before, (but have had a B.N. BMW coupe) I never saw an R32 and then saw an S3 and thought of the S3 as better/worse car.. Very similar to me as a non owner, and even thought the R32 looked a ton better/classier. Still do.

In saying that Grig what R do you have?

[G-rig]

I'm different in that way. If I wanted an S3 I would have bought one. But I liked the R better, and as far as I know the S3 and R are very similar mechanically.

True, they are essentially the same thing, but the Audi has the better fit and finish. Hard to say if it's worth the extra spend though but probably wouldn't get one now with a new model around the corner.

In saying that Grig what R do you have?

I had a 6MT MK5 R32 and now have a MK6 GTI DSG. Felt like a change, both great cars.

[gareth_oau]

I agree that a car isnt just about how quick it goes 0-100.

i purchased the FPV GT-P and at the time, the F6 turbo was quicker (and even handled better).

but at the end of the day, I got the much better seats, much better brakes, instananeous torque and a sensational exhaust note.

If cost isnt a high priority, then 'bang-for-bucks' isnt necessarily the right assessment

[REXman]

Here are the results for the top 3 cars in BFYB 2010

Overall Results
1. Golf GTI
2. Clio 200 Cup
3. Golf R

A few figures

0-100km/h
1. 7.1 sec
2. 7.8 sec
3. 6.4 sec

80-120km/h
1. 3.9 sec
2. 5.3 sec
3. 3.8 sec

Wakefield Laptime (sec)
1. 1:13.1
2. 1:13.0
3. 1:11.0

2-2.1 secs is a massive difference. Time that, and consider the pace is probably above 150km/h.

I'll assume 150km/h as the test speed.

To put in perspective, when the R crosses the line, the Clio is about 83meters behind and the GTI is about 87.43 meters behind. And thats on a course which took just over a minute. If it was a 10 minute race it would be nearing a kilometer behind.

That's.. quite a bit behind. Go R!! So I think it does offer pretty good value looking at it that way. But motor did it differently, which is how it is!

[G-rig]

2-2.1 secs is a massive difference. Time that, and consider the pace is probably above 150km/h

Semi slicks would add 3sec a lap to put it in perspective but depends if youre a competitive racer or not I guess.