Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[dave_r]

I had a look and there appears to be a clip of some kind on the drivers side front around the middle which is protruding a bit compared to the LHS which is flush with the guard liner. I wonder if this is causing the rubbing noise.

[Corey_R]

Quite possibly. From what I understand, on the 19" delivered cars they replaced a bolt or screw which used to be in that location with clips. So I'd have assumed that they should both be flush.

[WhiteJames]

18" or 19"

I’ve maintained from the very earliest couple of posts in this GTI –v Golf R thread that the 235/35/19” tyre is not suitable or local conditions & will rub on the top centre inner mudguard screw flange & guard lip. The Golf R 5 door on 19” wheels being about 140kg heavier than the GTI doesn’t help with the rubbing issue. The MKV R32 on 225/40/18” wheel/tyre combo also rubs occasionally on the same part of the front quarter panel.

think it was mistake for Volkswagen to option up the Golf R with the 19”/235 wheel/tyre combo for Aus – far too aggressive for our crap roadways. Authorities probably overlooked this aspect of the Golf R when measuring, but not driving the Golf R for ADR compliance.

There’s no room to lower the Golf R on 235/19” wheel/tyre combo as the problem is only exacerbated. Some of the GTI’s with PSS10 Bilstein coilovers set to reasonably hard (5-6/10) at the front with a little bit of an elevation at the front end haven’t rubbed on 235/19” wheel/tyre combo providing the wheels were the correct size offset (ET). Ride was a bit terse though.

Speaking with Ray this week, he is going to look into the small set of H&R adjustable sway bars, perhaps sooner rather than later, as they, like the Golf R, are built in batches a few times a year. This may cut down on any waiting time for delivery.

Ray is also taking a different route to most of the harder core guys on the forum re: upgrades. After sway bars, which, as I suggested were very complimentary to the Golf R (small size only) ... Ray may look at upgrading the brake package to better round off his new Golf R

Probably the Brembo BBK 355mm split rotor & hat. Although there are lighter rotor & calliper packages out there (can’t remember which ones). The power upgrades, if any, will be done further down the track once the suspension, brake and tyre package is sorted to accommodate any increase in power. I’m trying to talk Ray into doing the full monty for next year’s MOTOR Hot Tuner Shootout. It’ll make for some good reading down the track.

Power upgrades & Dynamic Chassis Control (DCC) is difficult question in terms of compliance. Usually, any more than 15% power hike should result in consummate upgrades in brake, suspension & wheel/tyre hardware to keep the whole shebang legit.

DCC throws in a curve ball in that it works more effectively than the standard suspension – firming up when the situation arises and keeping the Golf flat in turns without the use of thicker & stiffer sway bars. DCC can also be run in ‘Sport’ setting to compensate for any added upgrade in power from tuning. There will come a time when a greater increase in power will necessitate a change of chassis hardware ... but for now it appears to be a grey area.

Rules such as this are more rigorously enforced via TUV in Germany. Similar reason imo why the same Oettinger and APR ECU upgrade quote different power & torque values with Oettinger being the lower to save the Germans from having to upgrade the chassis & wheel hardware.

Speaking of chassis hardware: Reading the latest MOTOR Magazine March 2011 edition during my Latte break with great interest:

The Evolve Technik BWW 135ci with vacuum problems causing a loss in turbo boost giving only slightly more power than a stock BMW 135ci still managed to beat the track time of the big brother BMW M3 that was riding on wider tyres, by virtue of a couple of suspension upgrades ... namely the same suspension upgrades that I ran on my old MKV GTI ... KW V3 coilovers and H&R adjustable solid anti-roll bars. A very impressive result at Winton on street tyres from primarily suspension tuning alone on the Evolve BMW 135ci ... esp. on a very hot day versus a stock BMW M3 sedan. The KW V3 and H&R kit also made the BMW 135 a more responsive drive.

Cheers
WJ

[REXman]

Speaking of chassis hardware: Reading the latest MOTOR Magazine March 2011 edition during my Latte break with great interest:

The Evolve Technik BWW 135ci with vacuum problems causing a loss in turbo boost giving only slightly more power than a stock BMW 135ci still managed to beat the track time of the big brother BMW M3 that was riding on wider tyres, by virtue of a couple of suspension upgrades ... namely the same suspension upgrades that I ran on my old MKV GTI ... KW V3 coilovers and H&R adjustable solid anti-roll bars. A very impressive result at Winton on street tyres from primarily suspension tuning alone on the Evolve BMW 135ci ... esp. on a very hot day versus a stock BMW M3 sedan. The KW V3 and H&R kit also made the BMW 135 a more responsive drive.

Cheers
WJ

Hey WJ,

Did you notice that once the boost leak was fixed, it made 254KW at the rear wheels. That car was nuts.

[dave_r]

Speaking with Ray this week, he is going to look into the small set of H&R adjustable sway bars, perhaps sooner rather than later, as they, like the Golf R, are built in batches a few times a year. This may cut down on any waiting time for delivery.

Get him to do it soon so we can hear some feedback on them! I asked volkspower what to do handling wise and they said the haldex controller before anything which seemed rather excessive!

Have been too lazy to play with the lug under the wheel arch, maybe do that tomorrow when I give it a wash. Nothing major, doesn't rub anywhere else.

[WhiteJames]

Ray already has a set of H&R solid adjustable sway bars and Haldex on his current MKV R32. I wasn't aware that Haldex made an aftermarket Haldex Controller for the Golf R. I don't think any Haldex Controller will rid the R from the inherent fwd feeling. The OE Golf R Haldex is very very good when comparing it to the older versions in the MKV R32 (OE and Aftermarket). Depends where and how you drive. Ray does a lot of city and freeway driving, so he doesn't rate the Haldex as highly as the H&R sway bars on his R32. Others that want to retain as much comfort and independence in their R32 and drive around the mountains on curvy tight graded roadways, prefer the Haldex system. Both are good to have. Forgot to mention that the 19" wheel/tyre option on the Golf R may be neccessary for a Big Brake Kit.

Here's a review of two Golf R32 - one with suspension upgrades (coilovers & sway bars) - the other with only the Haldex Controller upgrade:

Review: H&R Street Performance Coilovers - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com

Summary:

Which would I take home?

If I drove on the very goods roadways most of the time, I’d fancy the H&R Street Performance coilover with H&R bars. If I had to drive daily on rough roadways, it have to be the Koni-FSD Eibach ProKit H&R small anti-roll bar combination. I’d rate this combination slightly ahead of the H&R SPC due to the fact the Koni-FSD lost little in smooth roadway performance; but was noticeably better when the going got rough. As for the addition of the Hadlex system onto an R32 in lieu of H&R performance coilovers: difficult question.

If I went for the H&R SPC coilovers, I’d want the H&R anti-roll bars as well. This would add another $1,000 to the price of the coilovers. Conversely, if I went the H&R anti roll bars; I’d want the H&R coilovers to match. As Jig says: no use in keeping the OEM springs and dampers with H&R bars; been there, done that.”

Alternatively, if you drive in wet, greasy or icy conditions; or live in areas with extremely rough roads, and have a limited budget to spend of $1700 for a performance upgrade and no more, the Haldex Gen II Controller may be for you. As long as you don’t push any harder than 8/10ths.

When push comes to shove and we pitch R32 versus R32, putting the GTI aside for the moment, the addition of the H&R coilovers and H&R solid adjustable anti-roll bars set on soft for front and hard for rear, makes a marked change in dynamics from understeer to neutral and a greater improvement in handling and drive over the Haldex Controller. So the win goes to the H&R Street Performance Coilover and H&R anti-roll bar UG R32 on the R32 front.

Strictly speaking on suspension dynamics: for drivers than traverse the worst roads to the best roads that this rugged country has to offer, the Koni FSD-Eibach Prokit is on the money. If your surroundings are made up of fine to moderately bad roadways, nothing worst than smooth B-grade roadways, the H&R Street Performance Coilover offers that bit extra performance with perfectly matched, tuned and sorted springs and dampers. The UG H&R R32 is the best handling Golf I have driven to date; now that says something.

The Grey 3 door R32 was in Feb MOTOR Mag and now has a supercharger. The owner of the Black R32 sold it and now drives an Audi TT-RS.

Cheers
WJ

[Pepe]

I’ve maintained from the very earliest couple of posts in this GTI –v Golf R thread that the 235/35/19” tyre is not suitable or local conditions & will rub on the top centre inner mudguard screw flange & guard lip. The Golf R 5 door on 19” wheels being about 140kg heavier than the GTI doesn’t help with the rubbing issue. The MKV R32 on 225/40/18” wheel/tyre combo also rubs occasionally on the same part of the front quarter panel.

I assume that would be why R's ordered with 19" wheels don't get the screw, they get a flat plastic piece that sticks out slightly and protects the lip of the arch.

I drive on crappy Sydney roads daily, I've never had a problem with 19's rubbing or causing any damage to the guard, etc. I even have a nightmare of a driveway that requires angled entry to get up it, no rubbing.

[REXman]

I drive on crappy Sydney roads daily, I've never had a problem with 19's rubbing or causing any damage to the guard, etc. I even have a nightmare of a driveway that requires angled entry to get up it, no rubbing.

+1 me too. No rubbing yet and I've punted.

[WhiteJames]

Golf GTI -v- Renault Megane RS250

Golf GTI –v- Renault Megane RS250

The Dealer:
Caught up with Canberra Renault Dealer, Melrose Automobiles - Sales Manager Sean Patterson who was kind enough to accompany my younger sibling and I for a test drive of the new Renault Megane RS250 Trophee.

The Route:
The Renault was taken through the suburbs of South Canberra and out onto some B-Grade country roadways that border Canberra. Some of these roadways were the same as the Golf R –v Golf GTI review conducted in Canberra. The roadway consists of medium B-grade flowing country roadways with several drives into and out of valleys and a few tight twisties thrown in for good measure. The Renault Megane was first cab off the rank with the Golf GTI driven along the same route afterwards. The Renault had three male passengers and the GTI had two male passengers on board. The DCC in the GTI was run in its more aggressive 'Sport'' mode to bring the GTI as close as possible to the Renault Megane in terms of chassis dynamics.

The Rides:
Renault Megane RS250 Trophee
Lunar Grey six speed manual complete with Bi-Xennon headlights, Limited Slip Differential with Revo-nuckle C-coupling on the front lower struts, and Recaro sports seats.

Golf GTI:
White DSG 5 door with 18” wheels, Dynamic Chassis Control (DCC) and Bi-Xenon headlights.

***

Renault Megane RS250 Trophee:

It’s case of 1 step back in terms of refinement and cabin quality and 2 steps forward in terms of fun, drivability, grip and chassis tune – esp. in the case of the Renault’s Limited Slip Differential and Revo-nuckle front lower strut joints.

It was immediately apparent that the Renault Megane’s motor had more urge everywhere in the rev range. It was that bit more eager to propel the RS250 forward. The Twin Scroll Turbo set-up that BMW and Porsche use is lag free from down low in addition to being smooth and linear right throughout the rev range up to 7,000rpm. Sales Manger Sean Patterson set the rev change up beeper to 6,500rpm, letting the driver know when the change up a gear. The gear display on the Renault RS250, unlike the Golf Manual, advises the driver of the best gear to be in for best forward momentum, rather than economy.

Refinement tech of the Renault puts it between the newer EA888 motor of the Golf GTI and its older sibling the EA113 motor in the Golf R. The Renault’s 184kW and 340Nm motor has a rorty growl compared to the Golf GTI. Majority of the test drive was in the Sport throttle mode in the Megane RS250, with the latter part of the drive in ‘Extreme’ throttle mode that increases the sensitivity of the throttle.

There are 4-5 changeable throttle settings on the Megane RS250. The Sport throttle mode is slightly more sensitive than the one mode only Golf GTI. The Extreme setting is fantastic – crisp and sensitive throttle application giving the driver greater feel though the loud pedal. The varied throttle setting is a great feature on the Renault. Melrose Automobiles Sales Manger finds the Extreme throttle setting a bit too sensitive for around town driving. I found it an absolute hoot.

Having very limited time behind the wheel of a vehicle with a manual gearbox, I found that, like the manual Golf GTI (MK6), the electronic throttle overrides the driver’s inputs on initial take off in 1st gear. A good feature to prevent clutch wear and abuse, but not so good for driver connection from standstill on take-off.

Traction on take-off from standstill is ‘OMG ... how good is this Renault RS250 ... who needs AWD’. The LSD and Revo-nuckle provide the Renault with superb levels of grip from take off right through the rev range. I’m not talking about a slight improvement over the EDL/XDS GTI ... the Megane RS250 is leagues ahead in front end grip from the get go ... either in a straight line or when negotiating corners. Front wheel drives are well known for compromised front end grip on take-off, esp. with 2.0 turbos under the bonnet. Very rarely did the traction control intervene when leaving 90 degree slip roads from a stationary position. Very rarely did the inside front wheel scrabble for traction. I can only describe the fwd grip levels of the Renault Megane RS250 as ‘astonishing’.

Torque steer was absent in the Renault. The Golf GTI exhibits a slight tendency to torque steer in the upper half of 2nd and the entirety of 3rd gear – esp. on outback poor to medium quality B-grade roadways. Front end traction is so good in the Renault it could easier handle a power upgrade without upsetting the balance of the vehicle. Many are buying the Golf R for its AWD grip levels. Try the Megane RS250 with LSD and Revo-nuckle and your opinion may well change on the need for AWD, with the addition of having a vehicle that is only 20kg heavier than the Golf GTI DSG.

The suspension in the Megane RS250 Trophee feels as it has less low-speed compression than the Golf GTI in the first instance. After a few kilometres, it appears than it’s rather a case of a very good match of spring rate & damper rate with a higher spring rate reducing that overdamper low speed compression and rebound rate that the Golf GTI exhibits.

Ride comfort in town and out on the medium level B-grade roadway surprising good for such as well tied down hatchback. My initial reaction to driving the Megane RS250 was ‘Hey ... this thing is like a slightly watered down version of my old MKV GTI with KW V3 and H&R suspension upgrade ... only a lot more comfortable in town and with a lot more fwd grip.’

To put things into perspective, the Renault RS250 sits in between my old MKV GTI ride with the top end premium KW V3 coilovers and aftermarket adjustable H&R sway bars and the Mark 6 Golf GTI and Golf R with DCC in Sport mode in terms of firmness and ride comfort. The Renault exhibit a fantastic handling/ride balance for everyday use in town or out in the sticks.

The Renault’s front end handles the big hits out on country roadways with more aplomb than the DCC equipped Golf GTI. You hear a muted thud from the suspension with noise being suppressed on the big hits more so than the GTI which transmits harder and faster compressions into the cabin. Some big hits under power in the GTI sounded like the front CV were tearing apart. This was not the case with the Renault Megane RS250. That’s despite the Golf offering better overall NVH. It is evident that the suspension in the Renault has a higher spring rate aiding composure out on the rougher terrain in addition to offering a good chassis control on smooth roadways.

It’s not all good with the Renault in the rear end. The torsion beam rear suspension did bump steer on harder mid corner hits, upsetting the Renault mid-corner balance. This bump steer was not apparent in the multi-link setup in the rear end of the Golf GTI. The Renault feels better balanced front to rear than the Golf GTI. Not as well balanced in weight as the AWD Golf R with the extra weight of its rear diff/driveline, but somewhere in between the Golf GTI with its bouncy rear end and the heavier comfort/sports setup of the Golf R.

The Renault is setup with slight understeer in mind, less so than the Golf GTI, but both steer from the front. It terms of throttle and brake adjustability, it’s difficult to call between the Megane and Golf. The Megane RS250 is certainly the sharper instrument, but not scalpel sharp. The front end grip of the Renault RS250 is just so much better than the Golf GTI. The Golf GTI does peg back some margin at higher speeds with XDS taking over from lower speed EDL, pulling the GTI into the corner bob-cat style, but by then the Renault has bolted from the corner, such is it’s level of outright front end grip.

On the rougher roadways, the Megane feels to have less independence between all wheels, which is the definitely the case in the rear end with the torsion beam rigidity, stiffer springs, dampers and possibly sway bar rates too. Driving in a straight line, both Megane and Golf are rarely unsettled. The Renault deals with a series of undulations convincing and adroitly, whereas the Golf GTI wavers for that fraction of a second. The Megane RS250 is certainly liveable in terms of ride comfort for either the enthusiast or their other half.

The gear change on the Renault Megane RS250 is choice – short and notchy. The throw on the Manual Golf GTI is too long and lacks the notchiness that the Renault offers. Being a DSG owner for the past 5 years, I didn’t tire of slamming through the gears on the Renault. It was so much fun. The pedals in the Renault are ideally suited for heel-n-toeing, which is not the case in the Golf with the brake pedal to far and too high from the gas pedal. The steering of the Renault is nicely weighted ... lighter than the GTI's steering when in DCC Sport mode, but heavier than the GTI when in DCC Comfort & Normal setting. The Renault's steering is also lighter at low speeds than the steering in the MKV GTI.

The interior plastics on the Renault are one full grade down on the Golf GTI. In defence of the Renault – the seats don’t rattle, the plastics or passenger seat didn’t squeak on this 3,000km demo and most importantly, there is no exhaust scavenging/waste-gate rattle that plagues the Mark 6 GTI.

The biggest disappointment of the Renault is the instrument cluster. The rev and speedometer dials are canted away from the driver and units of measure too difficult to decipher. In contrast the Golf has the electronic Speedo in addition to user friendly instrument dials. Despite the Renault’s G-Force, Acceleration and Lap Time meter – there is no oil temp meter. The 19” riding on 235/35 on the Megane RS250, as in the case of the Golf R riding on the 19” package, seemed to ride better than the GTI on 18” * 225/40 rubber – both in town and out in the country.

See next post for more ...

[WhiteJames]

Interlude:

My younger brother who was seated in the rear seat gave some insight into each vehicle:

The Renault in the rear is a bit cramped and there is no grab handle on the interior roof. The Renault sounded and felt coarser in ride and power delivery. He was adamant that the Renault did not require ESP or traction control based on the prodigious front end grip. In contrast, he thought the interference of traction control on the GTI too taxing, although the GTI felt lighter on its feet with stronger damping relative to spring rate. He was impressed with the get up and go of the Renault with 3 full sized adults on board and air-conditioning running. He reckons the Renault felt like it had a wider track, but less suspension travel. The GTI was smoother in engine delivery and ride/handling mix. He didn’t like the smaller boot of the Renault and the doors did not close with as solid a clunk as that of the Golf GTI. That’s his 2 cents worth - I did have to return his favour by spending the rest of the afternoon talking to Ford Dealers about FPV Falcons and Supercharged Coyote V8 motors ... he does come from the country.

Now for my take on the GTI.

[WhiteJames]

Golf GTI:

The Golf GTI with DSG and DCC had about similar amount of lack of turbo lag. The turbo in the GTI doesn’t hit as hard, but spools up to max boost faster. The faster spooling relates to full or part throttle applications. The Renault Twin Scroll Turbo has a linear surge up to 6500-7,000rpm, whereas it’s game over for the GTI at 6,000rpm.

The Renault ‘Extreme’ throttle setting does wonders for the Renaults feel good and fun factor when hitting the loud pedal. The GTI counters with greater responsiveness in the actual motor itself (not throttle sensitivity) with improved fuel metering of the 6 hole injectors and four lobe camshaft fuel pump actuator. Both leave the Golf R for dead in terms of fuel metering, turbo lag and throttle sensitivity. The Golf R’s feels lethargic under 4500rpm compared to either of these two and like Anthony Mudine’s last fight, seems to lack substance to back that big talking R for race moniker.

Although you’re travelling slower in the Golf GTI, the motor plays a bigger part in the GTI. Part due to the less focussed chassis tuning of the GTI to accommodate for all types of purchaser demographics. It’s the all-rounder sensible hot hatch that sacrifices fun for refinement. The Golf GTI does win the tractability test when asked to pull up a hill in top gear. The turbo instantly spools up like a diesel freight train. The Renault RS250 has difficulty moping around town in 5th and 6th gear, making for an unpleasant experience and struggled to accelerate in top gear on the uphill tractability test.

The GTI has traction control lighting up incessantly when either pulling out of 90 degree slip roads from stationary position or on take-off in a straight line. So much so, when compared to the Renault Megane and its LSD, it embarrassing. The DSG does provide an advantage in that there is less electronic interference from stop to go in the GTI; although the Manual GTI does have this problem as does the Renault Megane RS250.

The GTI immediately telegraphs a lighter feeling to its controls and suspension tune when out on the road. Smooth roadways in town have the GTI feeling slightly overdamped in relation to the low speed compression of the dampers relative to spring rate. This makes for a busy ride with the GTI incessantly bobbing up and down on small high frequency roadway undulations. This is not evident in the Megane RS250 and it was the more comfortable of the two in town at 60kph and 80kph – surprisingly.

Large compression suspension hits are noisier in the GTI, indicating that the high speed compression of the GTI’s dampers and spring rate is less than that of the Megane, which offers greater chassis control. On medium level bumps in the roadway, the DCC GTI and Megane RS250 would be judged about equal. The GTI always manages to have an underlying suppleness about its ride comfort with DCC, but this also detracts from driver as opposed to the standard dampers in the Renault Megane RS250. Remember that the DCC in the Golf GTI was run in ‘Sport’ mode.

GTI is also slightly more bouncy in the rear end and carries more understeer in the lower speed corners on corner entry. The EDL diff does a good job of keeping understeer at bay mid-corner and on corner exit, but never fails to quell that inside unruly wheel scrabbling for traction and simply doesn’t offer the sheer grip levels that the Renault and LSD provides. The GTI motor simply overwhelms the chassis tune and front end grip indicating that any further power upgrade is only going to compromise a vehicle already at its power and grip threshold in the lower gears.

Ideally, I like the mate the front end of the Megane RS250 with the rear multilink end of the GTI. The rear fully independent multilink suspension of the GTI is never upset and holds its own with an absence of bump steer on mid-corner unsettling features in the roadway. DCC does a fantastic job of keeping the GTI level and flat in both lateral body roll and pitch/squat fore and aft and has sophistication in suspension tech over the Renault Megane RS250, which feels to be a rudimentary chassis in refinement when the going gets tough.

Where the GTI falls down is that it’s not tuned for the enthusiast driver, rending it safe and secure, but ultimately a tad boring, clinical and inert in this present company. The GTI had the ability to match the Renault in terms of mid corner speed & handling, esp. at higher speeds, but falls short in terms of driver appeal. The sophistication is not put to its highest use in the GTI, rather catering for the wide demographics of buyers for this vehicle. The Renault has an advantage of catering for a smaller target market in terms of handling, grip and fun factor, which makes it the more focussed drive.

Brakes were not test to full capacity as it would be unfair to the Renault by virtue of having 3 occupants rather than the 2 occupants in the GTI. The larger Brembo brakes in the Renault were better modulated with a linear feel; whereas the GTI brakes were sporadic in retardation. Seating positions in both vehicles are very good, with the Golf offering that bit more versatility in steering wheel adjustment. Both the Jacky Cloth and Recaro seats grip the driver well. The Recaro seats in the Megane do feel that tad bit wider in the seat back than the standard seats in the Golf GTI.

Summary to follow ...

[WhiteJames]

Summary:

Golf GTI:
My pick for refinement, ease of use, interior class and polish, technology and the best all-rounder in this company.

Renault Megane RS250:
The true driver’s hot-hatch. Delivers fun in spades and definitely the pick for a back road blast or mountain climb. Despite the rudimentary chassis design, the tuning of the chassis is second to none and the LSD coupled with Revo-knuckle is a revelation for lifting the game in outright fwd grip and absence of torque steer.

And what of the Golf R:
If you’re looking for a grand tourer to cover vast distances with ease, the Golf R is for you.
If you’re looking for driver appeal, look towards the Renault Megane Sport RS250.
The Renault RS250 has now rendered AWD a non-essential.

Where would WJ put his coin if he was to purchase another hot-hatch today?

I go for the Renault Megane RS250 Trophee in White for around 50K, or the same price as my Golf GTI.
Yes. The Renault Megane RS250 is that good as an enthusiast’s driver’s fun hot-hatch.
It would mean that I’d have to put up with no DCC, 3 doors and a manual gearbox – but the driver appeal makes up for it.

Special Thanks.
Thanks to Sales Manager Sean Patterson at Melrose Automobiles, Melrose Drive, Canberra, ACT – The home of Renault in the National Capital. Sales Manager Sean Patterson has several Renault Megane RS250 Trophee vehicles for immediate delivery. Feel free to call him for a test drive. You will not be disappointed.

PICS:

See link to WJ Suspension Thread for pics of the Renault Megane RS250 Trophee.

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100863&page=15

Cheers.
WJ

[Ideo]

Cheers, great detailed info there.

The Renault really is a great little car. Your summary is the exact reason I went for the Golf R, but I would not be too upset if I suddenly came into possession of the Renault either.

[REXman]

Good write up WJ. Interesting points. Some I share. Some I dont ofcourse. Like "feeling" the six hole injectors sounds a bit of a marketing bash tbh and "in your head" more than anything. I can agree with the GTI being more responsive though.

And I agree with most of your summary. I dont about the comment of driver appeal. The R appeals to me to drive more than any of the other 2 cars you mentioned, that is why I bought it. Ive had cars with wings and blow off valves etc.. so Im not a cardigan wearer and I know what I like.

And If you mean the RS250 is the more track focused car.. I couldnt agree more!

Good write up though I got through it all.

[Corey_R]

I had a look at the photos that WJ posted of the RS250.

Either the more I look at the RS250, the more I dislike it, or it just looks better in real life than in photos.
Or maybe it's just a case that in photos I've the time to look at and absorb the details.. I don't know - but I initially liked it when I saw it at the Sydney AIMS, and I'm disliking it more and more now...