Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[tonymy01]

Five hours on the road to Albury and not one Golf R but saw a dozen or so GTIs

I drove around the southern highlands today via Warragamba, Picton, Hume, Mittagong/Bowral to the Treetops walk/Illawarra fly thingy, and back, didn't see any Golf R's either.
Did 400km of driving, that is over a third of the kms the car has travelled in its lifetime Near the end of the drive, even with some quite spirited overtaking maneuvers, I have seen the best economy so far, 8.5l/100km...normally about 13.5 for me . Only half a tank used in 400km of driving!

[jozeff]

Hi all,

So I took a drive of the Golf R last week.... A few thoughts

-it still corners like a predominantly front wheel drive car
-the haldex system does not feel performance orientated as much as we would all hope for the 'ultimate Golf'. The car basically feels like a very well weight distributed front wheel driver that never runs out of grip under normal driving.
- the engine despite being more laggy than the GTI is more exciting up top.

My personal conclusion is that the Golf R does not represent the 'ultimate Golf' like the old Golf R32s once did, both performance and concept. The old R32s even though they were relatively nose heavy and not much quicker than the GTIs, had a unique engine with a noise that was worth the extra spend. Instead the current Golf R feels more like parts bin special, or a Golf GTI with AWD.

Where the GTI is top of its class, the R should have been a lot better amongst its competitors.

Ide love to see the ultimate Golf having the 2.5t engine from the Audi TTRS and a better AWD system. Now THAT would be a Golf R!!!

[kaanage]

The 'Roc boys would have a fit if they read that! Yes, the Scirocco is built on a modified PQ35 platform just like the Mk6, but the wheelbase and track are different, centre of gravity is significantly lower, and there are a ton of other differences beyond the basic bodyshell that means you can't really compare them too closely and certainly can't call them equal. But they certainly do share many parts, yes - although I'd hazard a guess the Golf GTI and R share a lot more.

According to VW's brochures, the Sirocco and Golf have a wheelbase difference of 1mm (2575mm and 2574mm, respectively) while wikipedia have them both at 2578mm (along with the MkV Golf)
The brochures also state that the Sirocco does have a slightly wider front track (by 20mm) and slightly more at the rear (45mm) but the difference isn't earth shattering. It would be interesting to know which wheels are used when specifying these as the Sirocco comes with wider wheels/tyres as standard which would account for some of this difference.

As for lower CoG, well the body work accounts for much of this and the lower standard suspension would account for pretty much all of the rest

They aren't that different.

Back to the GTi vs R Golfs, jozeff sums up the differences pretty well. The 2 cars suit different drivers (talking about the ones that care about performance rather than the masses that just buy GTi's as an upspec model)

[Ideo]

No true driving enthusiast is going to get a GTI or an R or a 'roc as a pure weapon for driving enjoyment.

They are a bit too inert and lifeless for that.

Like all cars they are a compromise. Biased one way rather than the other.

The Megane is a better drivers car in real terms. The Golf, whatever spec, is a better day to day option.

It is up to the owner to work out which one fits with their criteria best.

[DoggieHowser]

A while back, I read a review of the "GTI clones". Basically they threw in as many of the "shared" platform cars from the VAG group into a test track. Cars included the mkV GTI, an A3, a TT as well as the hot hatch FWD from Seat, Skoda.

Despite them sharing a similar platform and engine, they all performed differently.

[WhiteJames]

AWD, Bilstein & Love Handles

The big Flemish speaking guy is back into a Golf R ... this time around a tuned Golf R:

Volkswagen Golf R Sportec SC350 roadtest (english subtitled) - YouTube

Cheers.
WJ

[sillyboy]

A while back, I read a review of the "GTI clones". Basically they threw in as many of the "shared" platform cars from the VAG group into a test track. Cars included the mkV GTI, an A3, a TT as well as the hot hatch FWD from Seat, Skoda.

Despite them sharing a similar platform and engine, they all performed differently.

Would you be able to find that review, I am actually considering buying a mk6 gti or other VAG car that share the same engine and chasis.

[DoggieHowser]

Don't have all the details.

But I remember they liked the GTI most. Even though it was the least powered.

[WhiteJames]

Golf R -v- Sirocco R

Sirocco R –v- Golf R

Had the pleasure of being a participant in the Evolution - Volkswagen Driver Training Day at Eastern Creek Raceway recently. Volkswagen supplied me with a Golf R and Sirocco R for their top-end driver training course. Here are my thoughts on each vehicle.

Sirocco R:

• Lower CoG wider stance has it cornering flatter than Golf R.
• More lift off oversteer around slalom and emergency swerves and stops.
• Less understeer with XDS electronic differential.
• Better grip and use of tyres than the Golf GTI and Golf R.
• Drive experience more visceral, pure and unadulterated compared to the Golf R.
• Sirocco R adds confidence to push on around the track.
• Pass twice as many other cars (Golf R’s) on the track when driving the Sirocco R such was its speed and my immediate confidence in the Rocco R.
• Cloth seats with smatterings of leather are nicer than the seats in the Golf R (Leather or Cloth Golf R seats).
• DCC standard (was in Sport mode all day).
• EA113 motor with KO4 offered heaps of lag on take-off. Sirocco R was dead down low compared to the Golf GTI and perhaps a tad deader than the Golf R (electronic throttle/mapping?).
• Higher speed down the straights from the Sirocco R.
• The added grip over that of the Golf GTI that is similar weight is tangible everywhere in the Sirocco R.
• Volkswagen have done a sterling job of making the Sirocco R feel very much unlike a FWD – much moreso than the Golf GTI, which feels to have added weight in the front end.
• Due to Ko4 + EA113 – Manual Trans could be a real option for the Sirocco R or Golf R unless you’re looking for the ultimate lap times.
• Not as visceral to drive as the Renault RS250, but more refined and better everywhere else as a refined drive.

Golf R:

• The Golf R felt like it was going to topple over around the slalom cones with tangibly higher CoG. Tyres not utilised as efficiently in the Golf R versus Sirocco R.
• Golf R had extra stability front to rear with extra weight of diff in the rear end.
• AWD did not really provide any benefit on a dry day like today ... with exception of added sure-footedness in terms of front to rear weight transfer.
• Added understeer in the Golf R turning into the corner and powering out of corners. Sirocco had XDS to compensate.
• More difficult to place the Golf R at the apex point with added weight and less alacrity.
• Leather seats are more slippery on the track and feel like plastic.
• Lower grip threshold on the Golf R due to added weight and higher CoG.
• Higher seating position.
• Golf R seemed to be more twitchy on the limit than the Sirocco R ... this appeared to be the case on the constant throttle around apex, rather than lifting on or off the throttle, where lighter rear end of the Sirocco R move around a bit more.
• Added squirm under heavy braking in the Golf R with the front end wondering around a bit more than the Sirocco R.
• Golf R not as fast to change direction as the Sirocco R (extra 130kgs doesn’t help + higher position of motor to accommodate extra driveline gear).
• Added practically and greater headroom than the Sirocco R.

Which would I buy?

Hard to say. Golf R is more practical. Sirocco R is definitely the better driver’s car, esp. on track. I’d probably go for a Sirocco R with Manual Transmission to aid in reducing the turbo lag of the KO4 + EA113 motor. The Golf GTI with KO3 + EA888 is much more responsive down low and off the mark.

Cheers.
WJ

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------


Golf R Video - Volkswagen Driver Training Experience Day - Eastern Creek:

Unfortunately ... there were issues with the Sirocco R video failing to record on Volkswagen Driver Training Experience Day USB recorder. The second drive with the Golf R video footage came out okay. Video shows what the evolution course is about. Look for the Sirocco R heading for the paddock at the 3 min 30 sec mark, narrowly avoiding disaster. See youtube.com link:

VW0004 - YouTube

Cheers.
WJ

[tonymy01]

Interesting. I am doing the Progression course on Monday (afternoon), it only has the Golf R and GTi as the offerings, I guess as long as I drive something like mine I will be happy .

[WhiteJames]

Pics - Volkswagen Evolution Driver Training Day - Eastern Creek Raceway

See WJ Suspension Thread for a few pics of the Golf R and Sirocco R ... Blue -v- Green Day. For those that think the Sirocco is a front heavy FWD ... think again. Many on the day were very surprised at how much the Sirocco felt un-like a FWD around the track and through the slalom. Just had to watch the lift off oversteer in the Sirocco R -v- Golf R, but the Sirocco was definitely the more fun and focussed of the two at Eastern Creek. Head is not too bad if you're under 6 foot tall in the rear of the Sirocco ... PITA getting in and out of the rear.

See pics on page 22 post # 484:

WHITE JAMES: Suspension & Wheel Reviews - Page 22 - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com

Cheers.
WJ

[andrew7]

Great write up WJ. BTW, what tint do you have on your GTI?

[WhiteJames]

Tint

Tint on my GTI is factory tint for rear and rear side windows. Front windows is the tint that McGraths Sutherland Volkswagen sell, which is Solaire directly behind the Sutho dealership. When dark ... both tints look the same. When very light, the aftermarket stick-on tint maintains a darker colour & is more effective at reducing UV/light. The Factory tint is clearer to see through.

Read the review from this months Top Gear Magazine re: Sirocco R -v- Megane RS250. In keeping with this thread, the other crappy French brand as others have stated to be seems to be around the same speed & level of agro and the Golf R. The Sirocco, as Top Gear as gleaned, is a faster car esp. on flowing roadways and higher speeds ... also in a straight line from rolling start imo. Seemed like the Sirocco R was doing about 10+kph more everywhere around EC than the Golf R, as top gear had noted in this month article. The Golf R and RS250 would no doubt be faster around a really tight track where XDS electronic diff can be a hinderance, but faster flowing roadways/track, has the Sirocco R really giving it to the Golf R and most probably Megane RS250, which is very short geared & revs out faster than the Sirocco R. My 2 cents.

Just think of the Sirocco R as an ED35 Golf GTI that is squashed down and widened with a Passat reer axle and you'd be on the money. See link to Danish video review for how quick the Sirocco R really is ... suprised me with its turn of speed and unlikeness as a FWD in certain conditions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3o6wlBwLno

Cheers.
WJ

[brimway]

Just think of the Sirocco R as an ED35 Golf GTI that is squashed down and widened with a Passat reer axle and you'd be on the money.
Cheers.
WJ

With respect, one very important omission, Golf GTI and R have 4 doors

[brimway]

Having completed the VW Progression Drive day at Norwell yesterday, I had the opportunity to compare a Golf GTI and Golf R back to back.

The last event of the day was 4 laps in the R first and then the GTI. As a very happy R owner, I expected that I would be a little biased toward the R, but not totally the case. The R was optioned with ACC and 19s, the GTI was poverty.

The R was, as expected, fantastic around the tight Norwell circuit, but the surprise for me was the GTI. It was quite amazing, especially as it rained heavily (enough to need the wipers on low speed) for the last 2 laps.

Overall, a good day that was very well organised. I was lucky to have Tony D'Alberto as my instructor.