7500K service - who's getting it done?

[Transporter]

Use the VW504.00 oil which is what you get from the dealer, if you ask for the oil for your car. Also look at the production date and if the car was made 12 month ago, you can safely change oil even if you've done much less than 15,000 or 7,500 or even less. Remember it is 15,000km or 12months which ever come first. I changed oil in Golf6 1.4TSI that was 12 month old and done only 1,500km.

[Golfitup]

There seems to be quite a bit of debate over changing oil before 15,000km because its said that there may be a break in oil in there that needs to be run for the full 15,000km.

I asked my service guy about this. He said that this is what they have been told by VW Australia. In essence, VW use a “special” break in oil that should not be changed before the 15,000km service. Changing prior to the 15,000km may void warranty.

Now, I asked him what oil is being used out of the factory and he said they don’t know, they tried to find out but VW won’t tell them. BTW I kind of know this guy, I doubt he would make that up.

So what I don’t get is what happens if, say within the first 1,000km, some sort of repair is needed where the oil needs to be drained. Lets say damaged sump for example.

What the hell are they going to fill your car up with? If they don’t know what the “special” oil is, then it has to be the VW recommended Castrol oil.

Just seems strange to me.

[brad]

Which oil can be used to top up before doing your first service or more specifically....
is it good idea to top it up with synthetic oil like Castrol SLX III 5W-30 : (found at VW dealers)

It is not for GTI (service done on 8.5K km) but for 90TSI (7,800KM 7 months old)

for a top-up, any 502 or 504 spec oil. if you call in at your dealer, they will do it for free

[Transporter]

Many car manufacturers use fully synthetic oil right from the factory and not just in the engines without any problems.

So, IMO changing your oil earlier will not do any harm. By the time you done 1,500 km your engine is already run in, and running it beyond 1,500 km with oil that contain a lot of metal shavings will only produce more (excessive) wear on the engine components.

If VW put special additives in the oil to help running in process, than for sure it is better than synthetic oil right from the factory and it is even better news for us who want to change the oil earlier, because for sure the engine with their special oil has to be already run in.

After all, if your engine will be in better mechanical condition because you changed oil in 1/2 the recommended intervals, than by the time you used your car for 180,000km you used extra 50L of oil for doing extra oil changes, but because of that the engine will have less wear, it will produce less pollution (also using less oil).

Now, I'm thinking about that turbocharger in the engine that done over 100,000km, hmm... I'm not sure that following blindly that servicing sticker in your car that say 15,000km/12Months is a good idea. I would be checking the fine print "driving under severe driving conditions" and think if any of these points there don't apply to me?

[Corey_R]

The 15,000km service intervals ARE for "severe driving conditions" though right? Otherwise we'd be on the 24 month / long service intervals?

There seems to be quite a bit of debate over changing oil before 15,000km because its said that there may be a break in oil in there that needs to be run for the full 15,000km.

I asked my service guy about this. He said that this is what they have been told by VW Australia. In essence, VW use a “special” break in oil that should not be changed before the 15,000km service. Changing prior to the 15,000km may void warranty.

For what it's worth, this is in line with what other service depts have told members. WhiteJames in particular has written a lot about the mineral/synthetic "break-in" oil VW use from the factory. But the basic premise is that the regular synthetic oil used after the first service is too thin to allow for a proper mating of the piston rings to the cylinder walls. Once they have bed in, you can then change to the regular synthetic oil as recommended by VW. During the break-in period, if you need to top up the oil, using the recommended synethic oil is fine.

Once the car has broken in, you can revert to the service requirements as per the VW manual, or as per Transporter's advice or your own ideas.

[brad]

The 15,000km service intervals ARE for "severe driving conditions" though right? Otherwise we'd be on the 24 month / long service intervals?.

Nope.
Sever driving conditions, as stated in the manual, require more frequent service (and I'm one of the "you people service your cars tooo often" brigade)

[Corey_R]

Thanks brad... hopefully end of November I'll have my own MK6 manual to refer to

[Maverick]

There seems to be quite a bit of debate over changing oil before 15,000km because its said that there may be a break in oil in there that needs to be run for the full 15,000km.

Oil Analysis has been performed by people overseas that has shown it's a synthetic oil in there with similar composition to that of a 504.00/507/00 oil.

I asked my service guy about this. He said that this is what they have been told by VW Australia. In essence, VW use a “special” break in oil that should not be changed before the 15,000km service. Changing prior to the 15,000km may void warranty.

Sounds like absolute rubbish, most dealers are happy to change the oil at 7500kms and they wouldn't do this if there were any problems.

Also those on long life intervals have been told as early as ~8000kms to change the oil because of the conditions they have been driving in.

Now, I asked him what oil is being used out of the factory and he said they don’t know, they tried to find out but VW won’t tell them. BTW I kind of know this guy, I doubt he would make that up.

Maybe because Volkswagen uses multiple oils from the factory, they generally have one brand they use for a period for the factory fills but don't say who this is.

So what I don’t get is what happens if, say within the first 1,000km, some sort of repair is needed where the oil needs to be drained. Lets say damaged sump for example.

What the hell are they going to fill your car up with? If they don’t know what the “special” oil is, then it has to be the VW recommended Castrol oil.

They will use a 504.00/507.00 oil most likely.

[Maverick]

The 15,000km service intervals ARE for "severe driving conditions" though right? Otherwise we'd be on the 24 month / long service intervals?

No 15,000kms is the standard interval, shorter intervals are required for severe driving conditions of which much of the driving in Australia is performed under.

I've posted this before but this is straight out of Volkswagen Germany, it's not been passed down through eight different mouths with it being changed a little each time but copied and pasted direct.

Severe operating conditions
If the vehicle is operated under severe operating conditions some maintenance will have to be performed before the next service is due or decrease the service intervals.

Severe operating conditions as defined by Volkswagen.

* Regular short trips or stop and go operation in urban traffic
* High percentage of cold starts
* Vehicle is used in areas with winter temperatures over a long period
* Regular long periods of idling (e.g. taxis)
* Vehicle is often driven under full load or towing a trailer
* Using diesel with elevated sulphur content
* Regular operation in areas with high levels of dust

[Maverick]

And if anyone is interested take a look at the UOA from the 2.0 FSI which clearly show that changing the oil at 7500kms is a prudent choice.

Link to UOA research

Specifically this post - 40 UOA's

This shows that most or all oils were worn out by ~8000kms except for the one that did all highway kms. Fuel dilution is an issue with the engine as well.

Also look at the rubbish in the engines with the factory fill with only low kms. I have some copies of the UOA reports around somewhere that show material used in the casting process and high levels of silicone in the factory fills along with engine wear (metal etc).

[Diesel_vert]

What's more interesting, and somewhat disappointing, is how none are using 504 oils as service-fills, as far as I can tell.

Just to be clear, they record the mileage in miles, not kilometres.

From looking at those excel tables on the 2nd and 3rd pages (great find BTW!), my amateur UOA analysis skills tell me that there is no clear trend which shows the need to change the first-fill until at least 7,500 km. But not enough data to support anything higher.

There does also seem to be a trend showing stable wear rates between 5,000 - 8,000 km, but that's as much information I could gather as, again, there just aren't enough samples between 7,500 and 15,000 km to make a meaningful judgement.

Given the performance differences of 502 and 504 oils and the minimal extra cost of 504 oils, it's fascinating to see the Americans continue to use 502 oils but I digress...


Regarding first-fill oils, IMO I'm doubtful it's significantly different than service-fill 504/507 oils. It doesn't make sense to me to use mineral oil (which would certainly break down quickly and sludge up a FSI motor) or whatever to create high amounts of break-in material and change it at 1,000 km or 2,000 km or whenever, and impose extra costs on the consumer with an early service, considering the engine needs 5,000 - 10,000 km to break-in anyway. Much better to use 504 oils (which are Group III or higher) and just run it longer, which it's capable of doing, and let the oil and the additives stabilise and do their job. This is what I think Volkswagen are doing.


So, in conclusion:
1. No real need to change the oil before 7,500 km for first and service fills, even for 502 oils.
2. Not enough trending data to prove or disprove 502 oils can last 15,000 km.




3. Um, don't use 502 oils??

[Maverick]

What's more interesting, and somewhat disappointing, is how none are using 504 oils as service-fills, as far as I can tell.

Some are but I'm not sure if they're included in that large table.

Just to be clear, they record the mileage in miles, not kilometres.

My 8000km claim is based on 5000miles.

From looking at those excel tables on the 2nd and 3rd pages (great find BTW!), my amateur UOA analysis skills tell me that there is no clear trend which shows the need to change the first-fill until at least 7,500 km. But not enough data to support anything higher.

There does also seem to be a trend showing stable wear rates between 5,000 - 8,000 km, but that's as much information I could gather as, again, there just aren't enough samples between 7,500 and 15,000 km to make a meaningful judgement.

From looking at a heap of the UOA's as well as reading the comments of people that seem to live, breath and poop oil the general consensus seems to be that there is a heap of crud in the factory fill by an early age (1000-2000miles), the 502.00 oils are good for maximum 5000 miles, fuel in the oil is an issue with the FSI engine and better quality oils like the 504.00/507.00 should be changed not long after 5000 miles.

Here's a UOA of a factory fill at 1000miles and 5000miles - 08' VW GTI 2.0l FSI 5000 miles factory fill - Bob Is The Oil Guy

[Diesel_vert]

My 8000km claim is based on 5000miles.

Yeah, I know. But they had me confused initially, so I thought I'd mention it in case it catches other readers out (bloody yanks - metricate already!).

From looking at a heap of the UOA's as well as reading the comments of people that seem to live, breath and poop oil the general consensus seems to be that there is a heap of crud in the factory fill by an early age (1000-2000miles), the 502.00 oils are good for maximum 5000 miles, fuel in the oil is an issue with the FSI engine...

... Here's a UOA of a factory fill at 1000miles and 5000miles - 08' VW GTI 2.0l FSI 5000 miles factory fill - Bob Is The Oil Guy

Yes, you can see Fe and Si is somewhat higher than average, Cu is definitely higher, Al only a bit higher. But IMO (again, amateur analysis) it's just natural break-in wear, nothing to be overly concerned about I think, especially as the other factory fill UOA's show similar wear numbers. This is normal in a healthy motor and after the initial break-in period, wear rates will settle down, as noted by the other UOA's. And yes, fuel dilution is also an issue, but looking at the table it really does seem to depend on each individual motor (a lot of wild swings).

All things considered, I still think it's okay leaving it until at least 7,500 km before draining.

... better quality oils like the 504.00/507.00 should be changed not long after 5000 miles.

To me this is the one issue that is still debatable. I know for certain the 4-cyl TDI motors do quite well on 15,000 km intervals, but I don't know if the same applies to the FSI motors. Keen to see UOA's but there doesn't seem to be much substantial or trending data for 504/507 oils in a petrol application.

[MIRSAD]

Use the VW504.00 oil which is what you get from the dealer, if you ask for the oil for your car. Also look at the production date and if the car was made 12 month ago, you can safely change oil even if you've done much less than 15,000 or 7,500 or even less. Remember it is 15,000km or 12months which ever come first. I changed oil in Golf6 1.4TSI that was 12 month old and done only 1,500km.

You are right,

Actually it is reconciling some of the arguments in this thread.

Service 15000Km or 12 months
Car was built in Sep 2009 - almost there.

"...should be changed not long after 5000 miles."

Mileage is 7800km

Even arguments of some dealership to do first service after 6 months is almost adding up:
6 months of driving, plus 3 - 4 months transport from Germany and storage in dealership's yard plus 1 month of deciding and making an appointment for service ... it is almost time - 12 months.

So thanks

Service booked for tomorrow

[Beaker]

Seems neither of the dealers in the ACT will change the oil/filter @ a 7500km service. Well they will, but both specificaly said they will void your warrenty if you insist on it.


So I'm kind of torn now - I bought a new car and expect to have the full warranty, but also know from expereince how much crap is dumped into the oil during run in, and the thought of leaving that in there for 15000km makes me shudder.

Not sure what to do now, I could take it to a non dealer workshop or do it myself, or simply leave it and take the risk of it wearing out before I was ready to pass it on.