DSG7 0AM Vag Com Data Logs

[gerhard]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

It's to prevent stupid Americans having another reason for a recall program.

It's not a torque converter auto car, and does not behave the way they do.

I don't understand which foot gets a rest when you put a TC auto into neutral at the lights. If it's not dead flat the car will roll and you will have to rest your foot on the brake, same as in any manual car. I can't say that I've ever needed to rest my foot in a TC auto car, you must have a very poor foot strength

I don't put my DSG into neutral at the lights, it's designed to not need that.

The safety switch is there to prevent the car being put into drive when there is no driver present, such as when you are running the engine in a driveway or service centre, taking diagnostics, or just getting out to open or close a gate or garage door. If your passenger or a child or a dog were to snick it into D or R it would take off, wouldn't it?.

[cktsi]

Here is a high sample rate log of what the K2 clutch does when crawling up a hill in 2nd gear.

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

[logger]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

Like Gerhard says the reason is to prevent inadvertent selection and not to prevent damage to the gearbox, which was the other candidate. But play with it a bit and you will see it is easy enough to defeat. It only needs the lightest brake pedal pressure to unlock. So you could still sit @ the lights in "N", lick the brake pedal, select "D" & off you go. You could also just sit stationary in "N", resting your foot, & acquire RSI in your arm by shuffling between "D" & "N" every 1.5sec and it will not lock I tend to leave it in "D" though.

[soogs]

Thanks logger. Can't try it yet, haven't got mine yet, hopefully early next year, hence all the dumb questions, as it looks like the DSG behaves differently from both auto and manual.

Gerhard's explanation partly explains the inadvertent selection of D when no driver's present, but most people will engage the hand brake if car in neutral and you have to leave the car.

[cme2c]

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

Your observation is interesting. I have found the reverse, that is, more slip in higher gears. I also find interesting just how much the clutches are slipping in the 7sp DSG and wonder how long they will last, compared to wet cluches in the 6sp.

Being an old motorcyclist and having to remove and replace wet clutches in the dim, dark past, I appreciate the larger friction area and lower friction. I also appreciate the amount of clutch material floating around the gearbox etc.

So the dry clutch may not last as long, but the gearbocx internals have an easier time. I wonder if there are any high milage dry clutch DSGs out there.

[logger]

I have made quite a bit of progress in the last week. (Ross Tech chaps gave me some good help). I used to know about 30 fields. Now I know pretty well all of them. Here is a reasonably complete list of what Mechatronics unit looks at to control the DSG7.

brake light 
brake pressure 
accelerator position
Kick Down 
Zero Accelerator (ie foot is off pedal)
Tiptronic, Source (CAN or Steering wheel) 
selector lever position

speeds IN
transmission input, speed 3 
engine speed, (G28/CAN) 
transmission input, speed 1
transmission input, speed 2 

speeds OUT
speed output, shaft 1 
speed output, shaft 2 
speed output, ESP (CAN) 
used, output speed 

direction of rotation, shaft 1
direction of rotation, shaft 2

Vehicle Speed

actual torque 
engine torque after, intervention (calculated) 
engine torque without intervention (calculated) 

engine torque limit (Engine), 
loss of torque, Engine 
loss of torque, transmission 
barometric pressure, (height information) 
 
temperature, microprocessor 

power supply state, gear train half 1 (target) 
power supply state, gear train half 2 (target) 
Voltage, gear train half 1 
Voltage, gear train half 2 
 
coolant, temperature 
intake air, temperature 
ambient, temperature 

lever lock status
lever lock Combination Lamp 

starter release (ie. is engine allowed to start)
 
selector lever position (instrument cluster) 
 
requirement, air compressor, 
cooling fan 
 
increasing, idle speed

Gear Request (When YES gear change has been requested)

transmission torque (nominal value) 

clutch, temperature 
clutch 1 
clutch 2 

driving strategies 1/2/3 Lambda

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hydraulic Pump  (Supplies the Mechatronics Hydraulic system)
pressure supply
hydraulic pump, (reference speed) 
hydraulic pump, (actual speed) 
hydraulic pump, Total Run Cycles 
Total Runtime
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ignition ON time
CAN-Version 

Gears Selected
Drive Shaft 1, Gear, Display Range: NN/1N/3N/N5/N7/Nx/xN
Drive Shaft 2, Gear, Display Range: NN/2N/4N/N6/NR/Nx/xN
?N = Selected Gear located on Output shaft 1
N? = Selected Gear located on Output shaft 2
NN = No gear engaged to Drive/input shaft
xN = Gear in transit on Output shaft 1
Nx = Gear in transit on Output shaft 2
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

steering wheel paddles, status 
brake status 
steering column module status 
Gateway, status 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

gear train half 1, (nominal pressure) 
gear train half 1, (actual pressure) 
gear train half 1, target (valve current) 
gear train half 1, actual (valve current) 
gear train half 1, valve current (value) 
gear train half 1, valve Duty cycle 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

gear train half 2, (nominal pressure) 
gear train half 2, (actual pressure) 
gear train half 2, target (valve current) 
gear train half 2, actual (valve current) 
gear train half 2, valve current (value) 
gear train half 2, valve Duty cycle 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Advanced Control Unit Identification I 
Advanced Control Unit Identification II 
serial number 
Advanced Control Unit Identification III 
Advanced Control Unit Identification IV 
Mechatronics identification 
Advanced Control Unit Identification V 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

clutch 1 
clutch 1, desired torque 
clutch 1, actual torque 
Clutch Path 1, (G617) target 
Clutch Path 1, (G617) Actual position 
clutch 1 AD is 1, actual position 
clutch 1 AD-value of 2, the actual position 
valve 3 in the gear train half 1 (N435) 
valve 3 (N435), gear train half 1 (target) 
valve 3 (N435), gear train half 1 (actual) 
clutch 1, friction coefficient 
clutch 1, curve 
clutch 1, temperature 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
clutch 2 
clutch 2, desired torque 
clutch 2, actual torque 
Clutch Path 2, (G618) target 
Clutch Path 2, (G618) Actual position 
clutch 2 OD-value 1, actual position 
clutch 2 OD value of 2, the actual position 
valve 3 in the gear train half 2 (N439) 
valve 3 (N439), gear train half 2 (target) 
valve 3 (N439), gear train half 2 (actual) 
clutch 2, coefficient of friction 
clutch 2, curve 
clutch 2, temperature 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
displacement sensor 2 for Gear Plate 1/3
displacement sensor 1 for gear plate 2/4
displacement sensor 3 for passage plate 5/7
displacement sensor 4 for gear disc 6/R 

& For each gear
adaptation 
Engage Position mm
Synchronous Position mm 
neutral mm

AND a stack more displacement sensor stuff including
respective selector solenoid valves. 
etc etc ...

I can pull any or all of the above stuff out now. Usual issues with sample rate though. 10 per sec for a single value and back to about 1 per sec for 12 items. Also can dump all several hundred values over about 30 seconds into an csv.

Some stuff I have worked out or read..

*Noticed that there are at 2 or 3 diff ratios in use, which is a clever way to make the unit more compact.

*Oils circuit uses a single hyd pump to supply two halves. There are eight solenoid valves. Two to regulate the pressure to each half. Two for the clutches and four for the gear actuators.
Each half has four solenoid valves.
1&1 in each half operate Gears 1/3 2/4
2&2 in each half operate Gears 5/7 6/R
3&3 in each half operates respective clutch
4&4 in each half regulates pressure to half & can shut off and isolate a half if it fails.

*Hyd pump has an accumulator and on cursory look can make 2 or 3 gear changes on residual pressure before it needing to fire up and rebuild pressure.

*I think (but am not yet sure) that the clutch plates have about 10mm of life in them and it may be possible to track their wear from VAG-COM. Will investgate this further. Could someone who knows clutches comment as to whether this would sound reasonable?

Thats about it for now.

[logger]

DSG7 hyd pump.xls is a log of what the Mechatronic Hyd pump does during a short drive around town. Shows that it runs a little over 10% of the time, typically for 2.5 secs each occasion while maintaining hyd pressure between ~ 45 and 60 bar. Mine has run for about 8.5 hours and nearly 12,000 cycles in around 70 hours of driving time. Lets hope this little sucker has plenty of cycles in it. The log is at 0.5 sec sample rate and shows the press drop, when the pumps runs and when gear changes are requested. Pump does not necessarily run during changes prvided accumulator press is sufficient. Pump ran 22 times in a 7 min drive while there were 27 gear changes.

[mr gee]

are you saying the dsg mechatronic pump may be electric? can it be slow to react or pressure up?

I have experienced slow clutch engagement when selecting D or R after start-up and on some occasions, a sensation of clutch slip on hard acceleration(w/o traction control light up).

[logger]

are you saying the dsg mechatronic pump may be electric?

Yes, thats right the hydraulic pump is powered by a brushless DC motor

can it be slow to react or pressure up?

I don't know. Mine is coming on at about 45bar/650psi.

I have experienced slow clutch engagement when selecting D or R after start-up and on some occasions, a sensation of clutch slip on hard acceleration(w/o traction control light up).

I doubt this is due to lack of Mechatronic HYD pressure as there are a stack of other parameters that are considered. But really I am just guessing here.

[logger]

If anyone is paranoid and wants to check their clutch temps - here are the measuring blocks you will need:
098,4 for clutch one and
118,4 for clutch two.
But I believe the speculation elsewhere in these forums is unfounded wrt the OAM and the issues are actually to do with DSG6 wet clutch units that have specific software versions loaded.

[logger]

Resetting the DSG7 0AM

There is a theory going around the traps that you can reset a DSG7 gearbox by doing this:

"With the vehicle stopped and engine turned off press the accelerator completely to the floor including the lower stage where you feel the click and hold it for about 10-15 seconds. this will reset the DSG and it will relearn." or in short by activating the kick down switch for >10 seconds with IGN off.

I believe this is rubbish and does nothing. It is myth born out of a requirement in the post DSG reset fast adaption process to drive with different pedal positions. Including momentarily at 100% pedal so that the controller can recognise the value for full acceleration.

I then tested the accelerator trick to see if has any effect. I noted the number of clutch adaptations on DSG7 via VAGCOM and there were in the order of 160 & 170 for each clutch after ~ 5 months. So I then applied this foot to the floor procedure for various time periods over 20 seconds with IGN off and on. I then rechecked the adaptation counts and they remained unchanged. So perhaps I am doing it wrong or more likely it is just a crock.

So I then reset the DSG7 properly using VAGCOM and as expected the clutch adaptation counts dropped to zero. Next step was to attempt to complete the "Test Drive after OAM basic settings" procedure and as expected the clutch adaption counts climbed from 0&0 to 2&1. If the test drive is completed successfully there should be at least 3 per clutch. I was a couple short of the 3 per clutch but clearly the adaptation was under way again again from a reset at 0.

Procedure goes on to say:

"If the test drive cannot be performed in the recommended way for the necessary length, the still open fast adaptations are automatically and unoticeably performed in the subsequent driving cycles."

So to my mind this dispels the foot to the floor reset myth.

[RW1]

Thanks for putting in the time. (And for splitting the topic off, was expecting the mods to chop in). I think I found the original source of the "myth" here, I think....

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=35923&page=2

Have you tried resetting the DSG? With the vehicle stopped and engine turned off press the accelerator completely to the floor including the lower stage where you feel the click and hold it for about 10-15 seconds. this will reset the DSG and it will relearn.

So I've posted up a Q to Coastie at the end here...

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=35923&page=5

This seems to be the first posting of this procedure for the 7 speed DSG on here. Where did you pick it up from?

C.

Interestly a UK guy has tried it today on a 2.0TSi with 6 speed and reported improvement effects. Always subjective. I wonder if it is something to do with the throttle?

C.

[Glennb]

Is there a need or a procedure to set the throttle response and mapping limits? ie, you mentioned the need to push the pedal all the way to the end so that the controller can learn 100%.

[logger]

Thanks for putting in the time. (And for splitting the topic off, was expecting the mods to chop in).

You're welcome. I am obvioulsy intersted in understanding how all these things work too, so I don't mind doing the fiddling about to test stuff.

... I wonder if it is something to do with the throttle?

I suspect (but am only guessing) that the controller seeing full throttle position forms part of the required things it needs to "see" from time to time for the adaptation progress to continue. Because it intuitively leads on from this - that supposing a driver has not used 100% accelerator position for an extremely long time then the controllers idea of where this position is may differ from the true position. It may even be that adaptation cycles cannot increment without the pedal being pegged to 100% momentarily. Will try an test his theory.

Is there a need or a procedure to set the throttle response and mapping limits? ie, you mentioned the need to push the pedal all the way to the end so that the controller can learn 100%.

There is a procedure called Throttle Body Alignment (TBA) which was previoulsy accomplished with VagCom. But now with the MK6's, (while TBA can still be done via VagCom) I understand from an extremely reliable source that it can now also be done simply by turning IGN on without starting for about 30 seconds when ENG is cold. Then the throttle will cycle through its range and the ECU will adapt/align to its positions. But I don't think this would relate to the DSG7 adaptation or reset. I think it is more to do with the ECU.

[RW1]

I suspect (but am only guessing) that the controller seeing full throttle position forms part of the required things it needs to "see" from time to time for the adaptation progress to continue. Because it intuitively leads on from this - that supposing a driver has not used 100% accelerator position for an extremely long time then the controllers idea of where this position is may differ from the true position. It may even be that adaptation cycles cannot increment without the pedal being pegged to 100% momentarily. Will try an test his theory.

That may tie in with my driving techniques and "running-in" the engine over the past few months. Since new last November, 2,000 miles ago, I've refrained from using full throttle - generally only using 1/4 to 3/4-ish due to urban crawl traffic. Only in the last few weeks have I taken the throttle to "100%" and held it there while driving. When first taken to the 100% and held while driving, the car's hesitations and lurchy gear changes did not lessen at all. Only as said, when full press of the throttle with ignition off for 20 secs.

C.