Timing chain and tensioner discussion and issues

[brad]

When I became a Service Advisor in a Ford dealership, my interest in cars plummeted from a passion to zero in about 3 months. I was given no product training and there was very little interaction between the counter staff & the workshop so it was often a guess as to what had been done to the car. Couldn't get out of there quick enough.

I reckon it would have to be one of the worst jobs.

[Lucas_R]

^ exactly the reason why i left my brief stint in the car industry about 12 yrs ago. And people tell me all the time "why don't you become a mechanic" or "why dont you go work at a car dealership" because i am always working on cars (both my cars and family/friends cars). Errm no thanks.

Anyway, back on topic....our GTI has started developing a noise on cold starts again over the past few weeks so its booked back into my mechanic (local Audi dealer) next week to get looked at. The noise is similar but not quite the same as before the tensioner was replaced - who knows whether the new tensioner is faulty/not installed correctly or perhaps one of the other tensioners is faulty.

For the record, these engines have 3x tensioners, 2 of them are hydraulic (for the timing chain and oil pump/balancer shafts) and the other is spring loaded.

So ill update here again once a diagnosis/repair is carried out next week.

[Lucas_R]

Timing chain

I mentioned in a previous post that our GTI was still rattling on cold starts (and also sometimes if its been parked for a short time with the engine still warm) even after the cam chain tensioner, timing cover case, chain guides and all necessary bolts were replaced a few months ago.

It doesn't rattle EVERY time, but probably 7 out of every 10 starts it will rattle.

Today i decided to inspect the tensioner via the little inspection hole in the timing case cover (this requires removal of the wheel, inner guard liner and turbo outlet pipe to access the inspection hole). Now, from my limited knowledge of these tensioners, this appears to be normal - see pics below.

Any comments from someone (VW mechanic etc) with more experience?

FYI the tensioner update was done by my local Audi dealer and it has been back once since then to check for the source of the rattle noise which still remains - to be told its normal and nothing to worry about.

Is it possible that the other hydraulic tensioner that runs the oil pump & balancer shafts is faulty? Happy to pay to have it fixed, but just want this damn noise to stop.

The car is a late 2009 GTI Mk6 with 66,000km and full service history - last oil change was about 2 months ago when the tensioner was replaced (Liqui-Moly TopTec 4200 5W-30).

[The One]

I mentioned in a previous post that our GTI was still rattling on cold starts (and also sometimes if its been parked for a short time with the engine still warm) even after the cam chain tensioner, timing cover case, chain guides and all necessary bolts were replaced a few months ago.

It doesn't rattle EVERY time, but probably 7 out of every 10 starts it will rattle.

Today i decided to inspect the tensioner via the little inspection hole in the timing case cover (this requires removal of the wheel, inner guard liner and turbo outlet pipe to access the inspection hole). Now, from my limited knowledge of these tensioners, this appears to be normal - see pics below.

Any comments from someone (VW mechanic etc) with more experience?

FYI the tensioner update was done by my local Audi dealer and it has been back once since then to check for the source of the rattle noise which still remains - to be told its normal and nothing to worry about.

Is it possible that the other hydraulic tensioner that runs the oil pump & balancer shafts is faulty? Happy to pay to have it fixed, but just want this damn noise to stop.

The car is a late 2009 GTI Mk6 with 66,000km and full service history - last oil change was about 2 months ago when the tensioner was replaced (Liqui-Moly TopTec 4200 5W-30).

Tensioner looks right mate. Give me till Monday and I will get you the spec of how many 'spindles' (round circles) it should be adjusted out too.

It should also be noted timing must be set with a dial guage and then you need to measure the links between a pre set (VW specs) number of links between each camshafts, then with a verner guage it should be something like 147mm apart between these links and something like 12 links or so, I can't remember off the top of my head but I will get the specs Monday morn.

[Lucas_R]

Timing chain

I think we might be onto something here....?

After reading this thread: http://www.vwwatercooled.com/forums/...her-74027.html

I started looking into this camshaft adjuster magnet as a possible culprit of the noise im still getting on startup (when engine is cold/cool).

Firstly, VW have revised the part so generally a revised part means that the original part had a higher than expected failure rate and required the engineers to re-think the design of that part.

With my car being a late 2009 built GTI, i have the old version camshaft adjuster magnet (metal body and silver in colour).

The new (revised) part has a black plastic body, so its easy to see whether yours is the original or the revised part.

Revised part: ECS Tuning

Original part:








After reading the thread above, i decided to remove this camshaft adjuster to take a better look and to see if there was any way to clean it out etc so that it would work correctly again. Im happy to buy the revised part from ECS Tuning, but wanted to try fixing the original one.

Once i had removed the part, i noticed that the "piston" that protrudes from the part was quite hard to move in/out of the body of the part. I wondered if some brake cleaner and degreaser might help loosen this up? So i sprayed both products into the little hole you can see in the picture below and within a short space of time, the "piston" was moving in/out of the body with much more ease.

I sprayed some more cleaner in there and let it sit for a good 5 mins before letting it drain out and cleaning it all up.

I put it back onto the car and connected it back up. I took out VCDS and made the camshaft adjuster magnet pulse in and out about 30-40 times.

Started the car up (1st start in a week) and no rattle. Not sure at this early stage whether this cleaning process has given this part a new lease on life or whether this will be short lived and the engine will be rattling on cold starts again next week....time will tell.

One thing is for sure, if you shake/rattle this camshaft adjuster magnet it makes the exact same sound that my engine does on cold starts.

Best part is that it only takes 5 mins to remove this part to inspect/clean it.


Piston retracted:
(you can also see the small rectangular shaped hole where i sprayed my cleaner to reach the moving parts inside):




Piston extended:




Showing engine with part removed:

[tigger73]

Nice work Lucas!

Be good to hear the long term results on this one. And as you say it's a 5-10 minute maintenance activity which can be quite easily done in the driveway.



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[Umai Naa!!]

Yep, good work!

Will be looking to try it on a couple I'm servicing this week.

[Lucas_R]

Nice work Lucas!

Be good to hear the long term results on this one. And as you say it's a 5-10 minute maintenance activity which can be quite easily done in the driveway.

Yep, good work!

Will be looking to try it on a couple I'm servicing this week.

The rattling sound is definitely coming from the top of the engine on the drivers side (ive had my ear on that area while my wife starts the car) so im really hoping that this camshaft adjuster magnet is the culprit.

And considering how complicated these cars are to work on normally (eg it took me over an hour to adjust my handbrake this week - what a bloody retarted process to have to undo/remove the center console to get at the adjuster) its refreshing to see that this part is easily accessable and pretty much anyone should be able to clean/replace this part at home in 10-15mins. The only tool needed was a T30 torx (dont quote me on the torx size though).

[The One]

The rattling sound is definitely coming from the top of the engine on the drivers side (ive had my ear on that area while my wife starts the car) so im really hoping that this camshaft adjuster magnet is the culprit.

And considering how complicated these cars are to work on normally (eg it took me over an hour to adjust my handbrake this week - what a bloody retarted process to have to undo/remove the center console to get at the adjuster) its refreshing to see that this part is easily accessable and pretty much anyone should be able to clean/replace this part at home in 10-15mins. The only tool needed was a T30 torx (dont quote me on the torx size though).

Yes it's a T30 torx, also if you can get ahold of a replacement seal I would be doing it, these things leak all the time!

[regu]

Hi Lucas,

Very interesting. Does this apply to other engines as well? I have a 90 TSI DSG and have the same problem with the rattle at start up when cold. Unfortunately somehow I can't see the pictures you have uploaded. My technical abilities are v. limited but I would like to give this a go or at least check myself. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks
Daniel

[minke]

For confirmation re: revised version. My GTI build date 10/2012 has the 'black' plastic covered camshaft adjuster.

[Lucas_R]

Yes it's a T30 torx, also if you can get ahold of a replacement seal I would be doing it, these things leak all the time!

Good idea - i didnt think about the rubber seal. I found them on the ECS website for about $10 so ill grab one of those along with the revised camshaft adjuster magnet.

For confirmation re: revised version. My GTI build date 10/2012 has the 'black' plastic covered camshaft adjuster.

Good info minke - thanks for that. Looks like ill be buying a new revised version.

[Ckar3170]

I've got a '10 MK6 GTI (88k kms) and I'm getting engine rattles (but really only when I accelerate, stops as soon as I take my foot off).

Very concerned its the timing chain and have been pulling my hair out trying to figure out the cause and have done so far:

- Taken it to VW Mascot, of course it didn't rattle when I took it in and drove it with the tech, also no codes, so they wouldn't look any further
- Have had the waste gate clip installed, didn't stop the rattle
- The timing chain and tensioner have already been replaced in July of 2014 to the latest revision
- Been scanning the car regularly to see if any code pop up, none in the past two weeks.
- Oil checked regular & currently full
- Regularly serviced, Liqui Moly top tec, German Oil filter (not OEM)

Could it be the chain / tensioner already starting to fail even after being replaced in 2014? Chain slapping against the timing case?

Car is DNA Stage 1, wider TOPs, Carbonio intake.

Appreciate any help or direction.

Edit: Waste gate clip needed re - seating.

[Reedy]

Could be chain but I would also check the in take manifold. Mine used to rattle at certain rpms. Take a large screw driver put it on your intake manifold and use it as a stethoscope. Get some one to rev the engine so it rattles and listen. Also you can move the intake flaps your self by pushing on the side of the manifold the plastic plunger. This moves the flaps so make it rattle the move the flaps. If the rattle stops then you have a flap loose. Could also be the high pressure fuel pump but these tend to go straight away rather than gradually but use the screw driver and take a listen, or use a stethoscope. Chains tend to rattle on cold starts. Hope it's not the chain for you. If you think it's your chain take off your tune and see a main dealer, they should fix it under warranty but may argue regarding your tune and blame the tune.


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[Lucas_R]

You should be ok if you have the updated chain and tensioner. Noise will be something else. As mentioned above, get the intake manifold checked out as these are also prone to failing.