4-way (8-way) adjustable driver's seat in GTI and Leather Option

[metrolex]

I wanted to express a couple of bug bears of mine about Golfs generally and Australian-specified GTIs in particular:

1. The Leather option for Golfs is second rate, given it costs $2,990 in Mark V Golfs (and $3,300 in the Mk VI).

For $3k, is it unreasonable to expect leather (not vinyl) on the centre armrest, if not the doors as well? The steering wheel and gear shift are already in leather in most models.

2. At $40k, the GTI should have an 8-way (ie tilt AND height) adjustable driver's seat.

Motorising the lumbar support has little utility when compared with a tilt function. And I would gladly trade a motorised lumbar adjustment (and/or heated seats) for a tilt function.

But in any event, an 8-way adjustable seat should be standard in GTIs (if not Comfortlines too), and motorised when leather is specified.

Indeed, the GTI pictured in the report in the SMH (4/4/2009) has an 8-way power driver's seat. Why not in Australian GTIs too? The current Tiguan has an 8-way power seat a well. And Mk V GTIs in the US (~$USD22,000) have an 8-way driver's seat.

If you're thinking of acquiring a Mk VI GTI, you might want to lobby VGA to ensure Australian cars are specified with an 8-way seat.

[Splashalot]

......
But in any event, an 8-way adjustable seat should be standard in GTIs (if not Comfortlines too), and motorised when leather is specified.

Personally I'd prefer manual adjustment of the seat where possible. My old Liberty had a full electric seat - the motor was on the way out when I traded it - $1,500+ for the parts alone

I take your points - esp re. the cost, but I like the manual height/fore-aft adjustment on the GTI's leather seats. Less to go wrong.

[MrGadget]

As long as it has memory to go go with the electric seats. My Liberty has electric seats and it is a real pain the find the same position again after my wife drives it.

[gtimk5]

I spose if you need such luxuries maybe people might like to look at Audis, BMs or whatever in the higher price bracket....
I really dont see the reason to complain, they are a lot of car for the price.
I wouldnt bother with leather myself as it really doesnt do a lot for me and geez, its not hard to adjust seats by hand!!! Maybe automatic electric swivelling sunvisors should be fitted??
Cheers, Andrew

[Maverick]

I wanted to express a couple of bug bears of mine about Golfs generally and Australian-specified GTIs in particular:

1. The Leather option for Golfs is second rate, given it costs $2,990 in Mark V Golfs (and $3,300 in the Mk VI).

Why is it second rate in the Mark 6? The leather quality has been upgraded.

And what's wrong with the Mark 5, I'm happy with the leather in the car and it's fit and finish.

2. At $40k, the GTI should have an 8-way (ie tilt AND height) adjustable driver's seat.

And is should have AWD, RNS510 and a K04 turbo going by your logic. Heck let's toss in 8 way seats in the rear as well. And a massage option along with seat cooling. Oopps got carried away and for $40K VW can only fit the 1.6l FSI engine and 14" steel wheels.

Motorising the lumbar support has little utility when compared with a tilt function. And I would gladly trade a motorised lumbar adjustment (and/or heated seats) for a tilt function.

Had a look at Audi prices recently? Electric lumbar is something like $500, heated seats $900 and so on. You want flexibility in your configuration you have to pay for it.

But in any event, an 8-way adjustable seat should be standard in GTIs (if not Comfortlines too), and motorised when leather is specified.

VW are already making pretty much no money on the car so would that fit something that most drivers couldn't give a toss about

And why should it only be in the GTI's and comfortlines? What about editions? Not fair that they lose out on such an essential item is it? Let's also do Polo's as well.

Look at what you get in the GTI and take a look at the build quality and features that come standard and for what you're paying it's pretty damn good value.

If you're thinking of acquiring a Mk VI GTI, you might want to lobby VGA to ensure Australian cars are specified with an 8-way seat.

I'm sure that all two of you will have great success in getting them to accommodate your desires

[WEDEL.1]

In my experience, the more adjustments available, the harder it is to get comfortable.

Sometimes less = more.

Maris

[metrolex]

Why is it second rate in the Mark 6? The leather quality has been upgraded.

And what's wrong with the Mark 5, I'm happy with the leather in the car and it's fit and finish.



And is should have AWD, RNS510 and a K04 turbo going by your logic. Heck let's toss in 8 way seats in the rear as well. And a massage option along with seat cooling. Oopps got carried away and for $40K VW can only fit the 1.6l FSI engine and 14" steel wheels.



Had a look at Audi prices recently? Electric lumbar is something like $500, heated seats $900 and so on. You want flexibility in your configuration you have to pay for it.



VW are already making pretty much no money on the car so would that fit something that most drivers couldn't give a toss about

And why should it only be in the GTI's and comfortlines? What about editions? Not fair that they lose out on such an essential item is it? Let's also do Polo's as well.

Look at what you get in the GTI and take a look at the build quality and features that come standard and for what you're paying it's pretty damn good value.



I'm sure that all two of you will have great success in getting them to accommodate your desires

If I saw a post from a VW owner seeking product improvements in which I had no interest I'd ignore it. I'd certainly be more circumspect about writing a sarcastic and largely unhelpful and inaccurate reply. Here's why, Mav:

What I think is second rate, in a $3k leather package, is the use of vinyl on the centre armrest and on the doors. Got it?

I said I'd like to see tilt adjustment (<$250 retail?) so you say by my logic "why not throw in Sat Nav and AWD etc too?". Er, right, Einstein.

If power lumbar adjustment and heated seats add $1,500 retail in an Audi, as you say, then even more the shame that VGA specify such costly and marginally useful equipment before specifying a far less costly tilt function that would allow all drivers (eg those whose knuckles are not so close to the ground) to set an optimal driving position.

You then imply ("duh") that my suggestion is stupid because tilt is something "most drivers couldn't give a toss about" and VW makes very little money on the car. These generalisations are baseless and mere figments of your imaginings: Volkswagen posted a 2008 profit of 4.75 billion euro with the Golf its highest volume vehicle. The GTI is the biggest selling Golf in Australia. And most people know, Mav, that gross profit and margin increase the higher up in the model range you go. "Duh" indeed.

While you say you are happy with the leather in your Mark V, you also say VW has upgraded the leather in the Mark VI. So as the leather meets your standards I gather you would have similarly derided anyone who suggested better quality leather.

Fortunately, VW does not adopt your standards and Mark VI owners can look forward to better quality leather and other improvements throughout the new Golf's lifecycle.

If VGA's Golf product manager sees your post, I trust they will realise that it was written by one of their less discerning owners and VGA's enthusiasm for adding value to Australian-specified Golfs will be untempered by asinine comments such as yours, Rick.

It is not my habit to be discourteous in any forum, but the tenor of your post called for a degree of bluntness that can be understood by correspondents of your calibre. So next time someone expresses a desire or suggests an improvement, have the good grace to STFU unless you have something useful to say, preferably in a considered and constructive way.

PS - for the other, more courteous, posters, who question the value of tilt adjustment, if you've not had it in a car before (as I have), you may not know what you're missing. Sure, an extra adjustment will add to the time it takes to adjust the seat (if you use it, that is), but for longer-legged drivers, a tilt adjustment is indispensable, providing more under-thigh support and allowing a much more comfortable driving position. Well worth the effort for those of us who need it.

[Treza360]

In my experience, the more adjustments available, the harder it is to get comfortable.
Sometimes less = more.
Maris

I'll second that. I've got no electric adjustments on the Konigs at all (and I wouldn't trade them for any other seat that I've sat in so far).
Cheers,
Trent

[Maverick]

What I think is second rate, in a $3k leather package, is the use of vinyl on the centre armrest and on the doors. Got it?

And this affects you how exactly? I don't care that it's not leather but leatherette because it makes no difference and is easier to look after.

If power lumbar adjustment and heated seats add $1,500 retail in an Audi, as you say, then even more the shame that VGA specify such costly and marginally useful equipment before specifying a far less costly tilt function that would allow all drivers (eg those whose knuckles are not so close to the ground) to set an optimal driving position.

And there are plenty of people who love the heated seats, they're fantastic in winter and the power lumbar support is ok. I've yet to have anyone find the GTI seats uncomfortable.

If you really want 8 way seats go and buy an Audi, they're not offered on the Golf.

You then imply ("duh") that my suggestion is stupid because tilt is something "most drivers couldn't give a toss about" and VW makes very little money on the car. These generalisations are baseless and mere figments of your imaginings: Volkswagen posted a 2008 profit of 4.75m euro with the Golf its highest volume vehicle. The GTI is the biggest selling Golf in Australia. And most people know, Mav, that gross profit and margin increase the higher up in the model range you go. "Duh" indeed.

And you'd be well aware that VW is loosing money on each Golf and has been cutting the spec to maintain profits on each new model year? I guess not.

While you say you are happy with the leather in your Mark V, you also say VW has upgraded the leather in the Mark VI. So as the leather meets your standards I gather you would have similarly derided anyone who suggested better quality leather.

VW stated that they choose to upgrade the leather in the Mark 6, there is nothing really wrong with the Mark 5 leather but like all manufacturers they increase the specs of their cars over time.

So next time someone expresses a desire or suggests an improvement, have the good grace to STFU unless you have something useful to say, preferably in a considered and constructive way.

And you've missed the point entirely. If you want these features _YOU_ have to pay for them, just because it's a $40K car doesn't mean that you should assume that it will come with feature x. Take a look at what the GTI comes with for the dollars and compare it to the other manufacturers. Take a look at the spartan WRX for example. _YOU_ may find that an 8 way seat is important but I would wager that most GTI drivers couldn't give a toss and would rather more ponies under the bonnet.

You want an 8 way seat? Go and buy an Audi where they allow you to option the car up in thousands of possible configurations, but of course you pay for that and expect to fork out at least $20K over the GTI or more. But you'll get your 8 way seats, electric even.

But don't think that just because the GTI is $40K (easily over $50K with options) should have an 8 way seat because of the dollars you're paying because it doesn't work like that. The Mark 6 GTI has the same seat that we have now as well. Your lobbying will be a waste of time as they're not going to change the spec of the Australian seats just for a few people.

[metrolex]

And this affects you how exactly? I don't care that it's not leather but leatherette because it makes no difference and is easier to look after.

Good for you, Mav, but I was not writing about what is good enough for you.

And there are plenty of people who love the heated seats, they're fantastic in winter and the power lumbar support is ok. I've yet to have anyone find the GTI seats uncomfortable.

Another generalisation. Thousands of GTIs have been sold in Australia. And you've spoken to how many owners? The fact remains that an 8-way seat would be more useful and less costly than a motorised lumbar adjustment.

If you really want 8 way seats go and buy an Audi, they're not offered on the Golf.

8-way seats are offered on GTIs in the US and Europe, to name two, which markets probably account for 75%+ of all Golfs sold. Now, what were you saying about 8-way seats not being offered on the Golf?

And you'd be well aware that VW is loosing money on each Golf and has been cutting the spec to maintain profits on each new model year? I guess not.

Do you work at VW, Mav? If not, unless you quote a source, most people will know you are making this up. Do you really think VW could have made nearly $10b Australian dollars in 2008 if they were losing money on the vehicle that is by far their biggest seller? Er, maybe not?

As for cutting the spec, yeah, that was shocking when they added ESP and a bunch of other extras to the Trendline and Comfortline models and sold them at no extra cost as the Edition and Pacific. And I think you'll find the Mark VI has 7 airbags and ESP standard across the range. The earlier Comfortline Sportline models were also upgraded in their lifecycles. Doesn't sound like cutting the spec to increase margin to me. But you're the expert, Mav.

VW stated that they choose to upgrade the leather in the Mark 6, there is nothing really wrong with the Mark 5 leather but like all manufacturers they increase the specs of their cars over time.

Sorry, what was that you were saying a second ago about VW cutting the spec to maintain profits on each new model year?

And you've missed the point entirely. If you want these features _YOU_ have to pay for them, just because it's a $40K car doesn't mean that you should assume that it will come with feature x. Take a look at what the GTI comes with for the dollars and compare it to the other manufacturers. Take a look at the spartan WRX for example.

I've missed the point? My original post was based on the premise that a $40k hatchback should have a tilt-adjustable driver's seat. Like the $USD22k GTI in the US market. I was assuming nothing. Better seating was a major factor in my choosing a GTI over its Japanese rivals. And seeing my V40 had an 8-way seat 10 years ago, it did not seem a big ask.

But can I not express a desire for a tilting seat, and try and rally some support, without provoking such unsubstantiated drivel? Who are you to be nay-saying someone for thinking Australian consumers should be getting better value from a German car manufacturer, or any manufacturer for that matter? At the most you might have said "I don't see the need, but good luck." But instead you revealed yourself to be churlish and full of it.

_YOU_ may find that an 8 way seat is important but I would wager that most GTI drivers couldn't give a toss and would rather more ponies under the bonnet.

More ponies, yes, sure, that's probably why VW added only a modest 8kw to the 2009 Mark VI GTI. They should have asked you, Mav, instead of relying on their marketing and engineering departments and they would have had a lot more power through the front wheels - precisely what the global head of the Golf program said (SMH 2009-0404) VW did not want to do.

But thanks so much for acknowledging that I may find an 8-way seat important. The idea of people having needs and desires different to your own finally getting through, is it?

You want an 8 way seat? Go and buy an Audi where they allow you to option the car up in thousands of possible configurations, but of course you pay for that and expect to fork out at least $20K over the GTI or more. But you'll get your 8 way seats, electric even.

Er, I don't want an Audi, not that you should be patronising anyone. But perhaps you're onto the real reason the GTI has had a 6-way seat in Australia: to reduce cannibalisation of Audi sales.

But don't think that just because the GTI is $40K (easily over $50K with options) should have an 8 way seat because of the dollars you're paying because it doesn't work like that. The Mark 6 GTI has the same seat that we have now as well. Your lobbying will be a waste of time as they're not going to change the spec of the Australian seats just for a few people.

So I should not expect a tilt function just because of the dollars I'm paying? I think you'll find a strong correlation between vehicle price and features as well as an expectation amongst consumers that the more they pay the more they should get. Just a hunch, Mav.

In any event, until VGA releases the specs for the Australian GTI it will be too early to say the seats in the Mark VI will be the same as those in the Mark V across the range. We'll have to wait and see. I'm betting VGA will do some of that "increasing the specs of their cars over time" you say VW does while they're "cutting the spec to maintain profits on each new model year." Whatever, Mav.

As for "just a few people" wanting tilt adjustment, that's just your baseless, unrepresentative opinion again, Mav. I'm sure there's a thread out there in need of your expert and insightful views. I hope you find it soon.

[SoVeReIgN]

Do you work at VW, Mav? If not, unless you quote a source, most people will know you are making this up. Do you really think VW could have made nearly $10b Australian dollars in 2008 if they were losing money on the vehicle that is by far their biggest seller? Er, maybe not?

They have publically stated the mk5 was not a good car for their pocketbook, they probably didn't lose money on each car but they sure didn't make much.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if alot of their money made in 2008 was from the stockmarket.

[Maverick]

Good for you, Mav, but I was not writing about what is good enough for you.

I'm still waiting to hear what is so wrong with leatherette on the doors and the back of the seats etc.

Another generalisation. Thousands of GTIs have been sold in Australia. And you've spoken to how many owners? The fact remains that an 8-way seat would be more useful and less costly than a motorised lumbar adjustment.

Take a look at the forums and you'll see about no complaints about the GTI seats and the lack of adjustment.

Less costly? And you know this how exactly?

8-way seats are offered on GTIs in the US and Europe, to name two, which markets probably account for 75%+ of all Golfs sold. Now, what were you saying about 8-way seats not being offered on the Golf?

They're not offered on the Golf in Australia, we have different ADR's and different requirements for seat bases (anti-submarine) and this may be part of the reason. The standard euro seat is the same as ours.

Do you work at VW, Mav? If not, unless you quote a source, most people will know you are making this up. Do you really think VW could have made nearly $10b Australian dollars in 2008 if they were losing money on the vehicle that is by far their biggest seller? Er, maybe not?

Look it up yourself. The reason why the Golf Mark 6 was rushed forward was because VW were losing money on the Golf Mark 5 in a big way. The Mark 6 was brought forward two years and is really a Mark 5.5, the Mark 7 is already being slated for release in 2-3 years.

To assist you in your task you're looking specifically at how long it takes to build a Golf and how even after many many changes they still take 2-3 times longer then an equivalent car.

As for cutting the spec, yeah, that was shocking when they added ESP and a bunch of other extras to the Trendline and Comfortline models and sold them at no extra cost as the Edition and Pacific.

They did this to maintain sales as others were offering higher specs.

And I think you'll find the Mark VI has 7 airbags and ESP standard across the range. The earlier Comfortline Sportline models were also upgraded in their lifecycles. Doesn't sound like cutting the spec to increase margin to me. But you're the expert, Mav.

Take a look at what the removed with each model year. A lot more then what they added generally.

Active front headrests for example.

I've missed the point? My original post was based on the premise that a $40k hatchback should have a tilt-adjustable driver's seat.

Where is it written that a $40K hatchback must have a tilt adjustable drivers seat? I don't see any complaints.

Like the $USD22k GTI in the US market. I was assuming nothing. Better seating was a major factor in my choosing a GTI over its Japanese rivals. And seeing my V40 had an 8-way seat 10 years ago, it did not seem a big ask.

You brought the wrong car then, get a R36 as it has a 14 way adjustable drivers seat.

Er, I don't want an Audi, not that you should be patronising anyone. But perhaps you're onto the real reason the GTI has had a 6-way seat in Australia: to reduce cannibalisation of Audi sales.

Yeah I'm sure that heaps of GTI buyers stormed out of the VW showroom in disgust at the 6 way seat and brought an Audi instead.

So I should not expect a tilt function just because of the dollars I'm paying? I think you'll find a strong correlation between vehicle price and features as well as an expectation amongst consumers that the more they pay the more they should get. Just a hunch, Mav.

The car has a drivers seat that is comfortable and supportive, why should they jack the price of the car up or reduce the spec just to offer an 8 way seat that IMO is not required when the 6 way seat works just fine.

You have yet to give a reason why an 8 way seat would be better.

In any event, until VGA releases the specs for the Australian GTI it will be too early to say the seats in the Mark VI will be the same as those in the Mark V across the range. We'll have to wait and see. I'm betting VGA will do some of that "increasing the specs of their cars over time" you say VW does while they're "cutting the spec to maintain profits on each new model year." Whatever, Mav.

Go and take a look at the overseas specs for the GTI, the answer is there.

Also go and take a look at the changes between the MY06 and MY07 models. Deletion of many features including active whiplash protection.

[gtimk5]

And thats about it I think...
Metrolex, you have taken offence at Mavericks posts here and I think if you are getting upset about his posts, you might need to look closer at the claims.
For $40000 odd the Mk5 is a lot of car and every car on the market is a compromise to suit all the different tastes and uses. Being a compromise is the reason we change suspension , ect. to suit our needs and wants.
I mean, someone could get on here and ask for everyone to lobby VW for a woodgrain dash or carbon fibre door handles or whatever. If we all wanted electonic adjustments on the seats and wanted to pay the extra for that option then we would email VW but we are a small market in Australia.
Maybe you cant remember the period between 1981 to 1990 where you couldnt buy a Golf in Australia? I do and I kept hassling our local dealer for the Mk2 GTI model, year in /out. We are sooooo lucky to be able to get them these days I think.
I wont be lobbying VW to bring in the optiion you are wanting, the premium model Audi has that feature. I am perfectly happy with the seats in my GTI, even if they arent leather!!
Dont get so passionate that others dont agree, its probably the first post of yours that asked/told us all to lobby VW to get the option that you really want and one that the rest of us cant see the feature as being high on our wanted list.
If the arguing persists here the thread will be closed.... Lets keep it friendly please gents.....
Andrew

[metrolex]

And thats about it I think...
Metrolex, you have taken offence at Mavericks posts here and I think if you are getting upset about his posts, you might need to look closer at the claims.
For $40000 odd the Mk5 is a lot of car and every car on the market is a compromise to suit all the different tastes and uses. Being a compromise is the reason we change suspension , ect. to suit our needs and wants. ..... Dont get so passionate that others dont agree ...

No, I'm not annoyed or passionate about Mav not agreeing that a tilt feature or more leather is called for in the GTI. But I am passionate about defending the right of members of such fora, including me, to post an opinion without receiving sarcastic and patronising replies.

There are lots of constructive things Mav could have written politely in reply. But most surprising is that, given he has no interest in these features, that he bothered to reply at all . . . but he does average two posts per day.

I do agree with Golf Houso - who really cares about tilt and leather? Well, I for one would be considerably more motivated to sell my MY08 GTI and acquire a Mark VI GTI if it had tilt on the driver's seat.

But in a democracy we should all care if posters can't inoffensively express an opinion without being mocked or derided. But the anonymity of such fora is seen by some members as an opportunity to depart from polite discourse.

I mean, someone could get on here and ask for everyone to lobby VW for a woodgrain dash or carbon fibre door handles or whatever. If we all wanted electonic adjustments on the seats and wanted to pay the extra for that option then we would email VW but we are a small market in Australia.

My interest was in a manual tilt adjustment to augment the driver's seat's height adjustment; it may not be a big deal to you, but it makes a big difference to drivers with longer legs.

To this suggestion Maverick sent a sarcastic reply writing that by the same logic the GTI should have SatNav, AWD etc. The comment was puerile: tilt would add a trifling amount to the cost of the car.

It is a shame that when one expresses an opinion in this forum some posters invariably become defensive, hyperbolic and/or rude.

It seems to be impossible to lament or, perish the thought, criticise any aspect of the Golf without provoking an impertinent "well go and buy an xyz", as if the poster has not made an informed choice or is not happy overall with their choice of car. Dissenters not welcome here?

Mave's posts contain too many assumptions and contradictions for me to bother responding again. But it is clear that it is he who has taken offence that I dared opine that leather should be on the armrest and that a tilt function would be useful, when he would not.

From the absence of posts critical of Golf seats, Mav concludes that no one else has an issue with the driver's seat. Breathtaking. As if any more than a tiny percentage of Golf owners posts to this forum. Not to mention those who might have bought a Golf over a BMW 1 Series, say, had the driving position been more adjustable.

As for the profitability of the Golf range, that is a matter for VAG, not its customers (unless it is excessive). The last thing any user group needs is people like Mav, piping up to say product enhancements are not justified because the manufacturer is losing money on each car it sells. Not exactly consumer advocacy 101; and an advocate for VW we don’t need, unless they have declared that they represent VW.

its probably the first post of yours that asked/told us all to lobby VW to get the option that you really want

I merely made the mildest of suggestions: "...you may want to lobby VGA ...". Not for an option but for standard equipment. A seat manufacturer would probably include tilt at very low marginal cost. And anyone who has no need for it can set and forget. What is the big deal? It can only help resale values if the car appeals to a wider range of buyers. Why would anyone bother to object?

And as for yet another of Mav's contradictory and unsubstantiated claims, ie that the overseas GTI spec tells us what will be specified here (despite saying in the same post that ADRs affect Australian specs, including specs for seats!), VGA advises (as of today) in regards to an 8-way adjustable driver's seat:

"The Australian specs for the new GTI have not been finalised yet, so ... this topic is still open."

So, to all of you silent, long-legged prospective Mark VI GTI owners: lobby away!

[GTI32]

I think having 8 way adjustment is a bit of a gimmick unless 2 or more people drive the car alot - and they are significantly different in size.
Personally, I set the seat when I bought it and havent't touched anything but the lumbar switch and the glorious seat heater dial since.

I will however acknowledge the benefit of tilt adjustment as I had it on my SS. It is very handy to put some support under your thighs on long trips, but I find the GTI seats do this pretty well already.

And no one really pays $3k for the leather upgrade anyway. It's practically thrown in these days.