Most powerfull MK5 GTI in Australia ?

[Guy_H]

Only did one run, we had a loose boost hose on the second run so they aborted it. The clamp was underneath so they couldn't get to it for the engine tray.

Wheelslip - no it does not - not unless they get a tach pickup and measure it against road speed. Its pretty easy to see wheelspin, you don't have to be a scientist to hear or see it.

The video says "APR stage 3" - T25 flange is standard on the APR manifold - sure it has a bigger turbo, stronger rods & it makes more horsepower. You can add those bits to the stage 3 kit - no problem.

You have an R32, why all the questions? Is someone getting you to ask them?

Boost logs? I have dozens. Feel free to call into our office & have a look at them. It makes no more boost on 104 than it does on 98 octane so they are not very exciting.

[Transporter]

Guy H,

How is it with that the dyno figures being plus/minus 30% accurate?

Sorry if it was answered before I didn't read the thread from beginning.

[Big Yellow]

Yes I have an R32, but i share a common interest in the fact that i like golfs! I originally looked at getting a GTI but didnt want to pump huge money into it to go faster, hence why i got the R32. I have always had a huge interest in turbo cars from back in the Jap scene but i moved into a euro car because i wanted a change!

I am asking questions because i like all things technical and this is a forum where we can all learn things, hence why I am asking questions!

Also, i might stick a turbo on my car later on down the track!!

[DUB 20V]

Yes I have an R32, but i share a common interest in the fact that i like golfs! I originally looked at getting a GTI but didnt want to pump huge money into it to go faster, hence why i got the R32. I have always had a huge interest in turbo cars from back in the Jap scene but i moved into a euro car because i wanted a change!

I am asking questions because i like all things technical and this is a forum where we can all learn things, hence why I am asking questions!

Also, i might stick a turbo on my car later on down the track!!

i thought the gti was faster in a straight line anyways?

anyways i love threads like this its good reading

[Guy_H]

Good news! - we found the boost leak (lower throttle body hose clamp was stripped) - this was the spot where they inserted the Intake temp probe & on the second run, blew the probe out of the hose & caused the leak.

So everyone will be happy to know that (maybe even Seb), and Jon was right (in the other thread), it was the intake probe that did shoot out (hence the wild number).

Anyway, we are ordering a new hose & T bolt clamps for all these joins now.

Big Yellow, did you find out if they dynoed the car/s in Melbourne, Seb seems to think they did, but nobody has posted any figures? - Just curious as I too like technical stuff.

[Guy_H]

Guy H,

How is it with that the dyno figures being plus/minus 30% accurate?

Sorry if it was answered before I didn't read the thread from beginning.

See the post in the events section -

[Oneofthegreats]

Good news! - we found the boost leak (lower throttle body hose clamp was stripped) - this was the spot where they inserted the Intake temp probe & on the second run, blew the probe out of the hose & caused the leak.

So everyone will be happy to know that (maybe even Seb), and Jon was right (in the other thread), it was the intake probe that did shoot out (hence the wild number).

Anyway, we are ordering a new hose & T bolt clamps for all these joins now.

Big Yellow, did you find out if they dynoed the car/s in Melbourne, Seb seems to think they did, but nobody has posted any figures? - Just curious as I too like technical stuff.

Good to hear Guy.

Glad you let us know about the intake probe too.

From what I've seen, where they put the intake temp probe would still give off a incorrect reading due to the increase in temp & correction factor's.

I've been taught to place the temp probe in the air inlet track, ie, in the pipe into the airbox or just at the opening for a true reading.

I've also seen dyno's guy's run the same at event's such as summernats.

They place them at the top of carby's or on unfiltered turbo's, at the opening or bellmouth of the turbo, not inline at the throttlebody.

[Bug_racer]

3rd gear runs are pretty normal - we have run them in 3rd & 4th before, but it makes no difference to the final numbers (That I have seen)- on the mkV it is well in excess of 200kmph - I think 3rd gear tops out ~ 180kmph?.

As far as I know, the intake probe was put in near the throttle body (after intercooler) - I was sitting in the car at the time so was not looking at where they placed it. It was bloody hot, I had a minor hangover & wanted to be in the car with aircon on.

They have been making in excess of 400whp on the 2871R (with race gas) even on the old 1.8T's - you can see over 64 whp in the software alone on this poor old MKIV GTI Golf:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2685793

http://www.golfmk5.com/forums/showpost.php?p=377534&postcount=7

Its actually a lot less than 180 , judging by the graph it really should have been done in 4th , power drops off after 7k rpm with a gt28 anyway so there is no point in revving it that high . Looking at your graph your making peak power somewhere between 6500-7000 rpm

Anyway , back to the topic at hand , I said B/S to the figure . Some of you asked for an explanantion and here it is :

Everyone can see the car made 300 kw with an Ambient temp of 32 degrees and an intake temp of 243 degrees . From the following post you can see how changing the temp and pressure can alter dyno readings : http://www.aempower.com/ViewTopic.aspx?TopicID=10

So using the metric version found here : http://wahiduddin.net/calc/cf.htm

we can work out as a percentage how much more power can be made by altering the intake air temp .

So using 990 mb as air pressure in mb we can come up with the following using the ambient air temp as the basis this is how it looks :

0.5
CF=1.176[ (990/990)(32+273/29 ]-0.176


= 1.176[1 x 1.01168]-0.176
=1.009731

so if the car was dynoed using the AT as IT it would require the figure by divided by 1.009731 to get the correct reading @ 25 degrees C .

Now using 243 degrees as IT :

0.5
CF=1.176[(990/990)(243+273/29 ]-0.176

CF=1.176[1 x 1.31588]-0.176
CF= 1.371

so at 243 degree's intake air temp , the power needs to be multiplied by 1.371 to get its true reading so

To get a reading at 25 degrees =

300 / 1.371 = 218.82

@ 32 degrees

300/1.371 x 1.009731
= 220.95 .


If anyone is lost in the maths / explanantion feel free to pm me or ask here .
A dyno really only is a tuning tool , you probably had a boost leak earlier thats why your figures are so low , I recommend you actually do some logs on your car , I beleive its channel 115 on vag com to see what its actually doing and feel free to post up the requested vs actual graphs

[Blitzen]

Nice work Guy, I remember reading an article about the US APR tuned Golf GTI last year in Motor, and How they were putting out insane amounts of power in that, and it is good to see over here now too...
I'm spewing I couldn't make the Dyno day now, and get my car on there...I would have had the opportunity to have my results picked apart till it was a bleeding mess on the floor.
Why is there such speed to pick apart someone else's good fortune? I understand you both have products to sell, but bugger me, congratulate, and pat on the back when its due...Like now... And plan on a bit of friendly one upsmanship...Because, at the end of the day, a pat on the back is just a survey for a stabbing.
To all the non believers, what do you do when you aren't picking the peanuts out of poo??
Just to clarify, I'm not taking sides...I have asked both parties for advice in the past, and even though I have a certain product on my car, it dosn't mean I didn't consider other alternative, so I'm not being biased.

[Big Yellow]

Incorrect placement of the intake temp probe will delivery varying results on the dyno, hence why the higher numbers in your instance, Guy.

From memory, Andy's car did put down around 260kw atw on pump fuel.

He will be going up to Sydney in March for the dyno day, so if anyone wants to see his car in action head down for it.

[DubSteve]

He will be going up to Sydney in March for the dyno day, so if anyone wants to see his car in action head down for it.

Fantastic I'll be able to kick him in the Nads then

[Guy_H]

Cool - So my car only makes 200kw @ the wheels - will we all agree on this amount then?

Let back track:

I turn up at the dyno with two friends - filling in a spot (dyno day organised by someone else)

The dyno operator strapped the car on (having just done a bunch of Golf's & Polo's). They attached their various sensors, checked the tyre pressures.

I sat in the passenger seat to do some data logs.

They ran the car, it made what it made - in front of about a dozen witness's.

2nd run had a hose come loose & also spat out the temp sender.

Too hard & too hot to fix it on the dyno so we called it a day.

My scanner is on the fritz, so I asked Sharkie if he could scan our graph for me & send it to me.

We went to the pub & had a nice lunch in the airconditioning.

The raw data is available for the first run (with intake sensor in the car).

End of story.

So big yellow - I can see now why you are asking:

I've been in GTI-07 and GTILIN's cars. I can vouch for their cars!! Friggen quick!! GIAC FTW!!! hehehe

Hong, can't wait to ride in yours!!
__________________
Terence aka BIG YELLOW

Post up the 260kw graph - now that IS the most powerful GTI in Australia - without a doubt (and it runs a smaller turbo than mine & according to Seb, thats completely impossible by a huge amount). I won't comment on that dyno, but Seb will. How many witness's were there at the dyno? How tight was it strapped down? What does a standard GTI run in the same gear on the same dyno? - please post it up for us all to see. C'mon Terrance, we are all waiting for proof of "the most powerful GTI in Australia.

You may have missed this thread a while back:

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=21835&highlight=gtilin

I will leave it up to you know

[Big Yellow]

I'm not asking you to say Andy's is the best or watever.

I'm asking because I've read on multiple unbiased forums that a few APR cars are not making anywhere near the power that they claim can be made.

I was just asking if that 300kw you made, was a realiable realistic figure. 300kw is a massive number for any car! And on stock internals, its hard to believe the engine could cope with that without busting rods and what not.

I don't think I am being wrong in the questions I have asked, I have not personally attacked you in anyway, and like I said, wanted to discuss. Hell, if your car only made 200kw I'd still be happy for you, in fact, I wish my car had that sort of power.

[gtimk5]

Dynos sound like a complete waste of time to me apart from causing arguments.
I havent dynoed mine and if I ever did I wouldnt bother posting it on here.
All I know is that my GTI is extremely driveable with stacks of torque out of corners and that is what I am interested in and not straight line stuff. That to me is booooring....
Who cares who has the most poerful GTI in Oz cause by the looks of it you can get awesome figures by fudging the dynos. Dont know why you would bother though??
Once again Guy, congrats on the readings. Cant wait to see how quick that thing is one day!!
Cheers!!

[mikinoz]

I think speculation is great, and healthy to a point. In the case where a dyno chart is logged and then posted, irrespective of how the numbers were reached, that is what the car did on the day.

It could have a nuclear reactor in it for all I care, as long as there is a chart, that is what the car did.

In short, if there are other cars out there that have higher graphs, put them up. If not I think the commentary should be reflective of adult not childish discussion.

And with all respect, there are probably people out there that don't sit behind a keyboard and talk about things - and get out there and develop cars for themselves, not for others. Maybe one of those have the most powerful car. Might even be Andrew for all we know!