Performance upgrade options - 2.0 ADY or stealth JH?

[maxmg]

So I've got a mk1 cabby at the moment but the motor blew. Managed to find a replacement JH from a very friendly forum member . The old engine is now out and the new is ready to go in, but I've recently been toying with the idea of throwing in something to make it zip a bit more. At first I thought about a complete 2.0 ADY swap from a mk3 golf, but would I need an engineering certificate to do that (i'm on green P's in Vic)? I figured it might be kinda iffy so then I thought I'd just do a bottom end ADY swap because I've read the hp gains are pretty similar except you don't get the OBD (?) options that you would from a full swap. Keeping the 1.8 JH head on the ADY block would also make it quite a stealthy swap so an engineering cert might not be needed (out of sight out of mind)? Excuse my ignorance about the performance regs. Anyone have any advice?

Right now I'm weighing up prices. For the full ADY swap I guess I'd want to buy a full donor car so that the wiring harness hasn't been butchered which is a potential problem at the junkyards. Or should I just wait and get one out of the yards with head and block + distributor, alternator and wiring harness? At a quick glance this route looks to be the more expensive.

On the other hand, I can get an ADY engine from a wreckers or ebay for ~500 without accessories. Already have the 4-2-1 manifold, so a techtonics downpipe with tall block adapter ($350) and a knock sensor system is all I really need I think. I've sourced a knock sensor control box, all wiring, knock sensor distributor and larger knock sensor throttle body all for $300 from the US. This route puts me at ~$1100. Obviously these numbers are pretty loose and don't include parts (gaskets etc).

Just wondering what people think and wanted some opinions. Cheers

[Notso Swift]

Are you worried about insurance or the police?
Police will not know if you do a "factory style" swap
insurance... Never know with those blokes!

[maxmg]

It's more the police that I'm concerned about. I just don't want a highway patrol guy to lift the bonnet and instantly know that a nice shiny motor doesn't belong in a pre 90's golf. Of course it always depends on several factors, but I think insurance will be a problem no matter which option I choose. If they want to fight a claim and get a good mechanic that specializes in euro cars to look it over, I would suspect they might catch on to even the 'stealth' ADY block swap.

[sports racer]

What are you legally allowed to do?

If you use the ADY block under your existing head why would you need the wiring harness? Just use your existing wiring and sensors, that's what was done on my MK2. Made it a very simple and cheap swap and even VW people don't pick it's not standard.

[maxmg]

I'm not sure what I'm legally allowed to do, that's the area that I lack the most knowledge so more research or advice is required.

When I was talking about the knock sensor system (control box, wiring etc) it was in regards to installing the ADY block. With a compression ratio of 10.0:1 in the ADY versus the stock 8.5:1 seen in the JH, I believe a knock sensor system is required/advised in order to prevent damage to the engine. In newer cars including the mk3, the knock sensor electronics were packaged in with the whole ECU which means I can't isolate the knock sensor system and use it in the cis-lambda mk1 cabby. Early scirroccos and some jetta's had the knock sensor as a separate unit. Please correct if I'm off the mark with these ideas

I guess when all is said and done, it would be easier to swap only the block. It may or may not work out cheaper (depending on cost of donor etc), but it would at least not be as much wiring to sort out. I'm also looking to sell the cabby down the road and move to a 3 door hard top mk1, so going all out on this engine may not be the best idea /shrug.

[gldgti]

You are required by law to notify your local registering body (Vicroads I guess?) if you change the engine number, because its on your rego papers.
The engine code is on the engine block, so swapping the bottom end in and not the head has no 'legal' advantage. the opposite might be true though.

[roccodingo]

Ditch the JH, well at least the block. The head as you say can be installed on the 2.0 litre bottom end.
While its in bits, de glaze hone and re ring , re bearing , give the valves a grind, new guides etc if required plus any other machine shop work to get it back to top form.
If your running K Jet then switch it back to basic version, use a 1600 dizzy with the vac advance and retard, preferably the electronic version ( as opposed to points ) change the dizzy drive gear, get the spacer from techtonics along with the front block off plate . You will also need the longer hose from the water pump up to the front head outlet. We used a SAfrican header and it fitted in with the taller block no problems. Check throttle body to hood clearance, uprate the engine mounts to 80 + durometer while you got it all out. Would also advise on a quaif or wavetrac to get the power connecting to the ground.
Have the dizzy re profiled to 1600 GTI curve specs.
Cam selection at least a 276 deg job.
Makes a fun engine that pulls like a train

[roccodingo]

Early Scirocco and golf GTI only had DIS which contrlos the idle speed, Antons 2e we just clipped the max advance to ease up any detonation issues.
Mk3 wiring your going to have to splice the wiring anyway ( plugs are different ) from what i recall.

[maxmg]

That's awesome info roccodingo I understood most of it but I'll quickly recap to make sure I understood it all. So keep the JH head and do a full machine job on it, chuck it on an ADY or similar Mk3 2.0 litre block. In regards to K jet (CIS?), why switch back to basic, is it easier to work with? I'm running CIS lambda at the moment, so going to basic K-jet would mean ditching the O2 sensor? Would the emissions then be handeled by recirculating the exhaust gas? I'm completely lost on the info about the 1.6l dizzy's . I know why the drive gear needs changing to fit the ABA block, but confused as to what the benefits of that model are and what you mean by the electronic version. Also how do you get it reprofiled to 1600 GTI specs ?

I understand all the larger block problems you mentioned and the engine mount stiffness. Limited slip diff would also be a dream, but it's a long way down the track

That's good to know about the knock box cars only being 16v it makes sense. Let me see if I understand this, so instead of using a knock sensor system you limited the amount that the timing could advance, in order to stop any detonation problems? I've found a guy that will sell me all the knock sensor components from a 16v scirrocco, would it be worth going that route? These are the parts of the knock sensor system, and here is some info I found on wiring it up. Another advantage I see to that is that it comes with a larger throttle body than the stock one that I'm currently running.

Again, thanks heaps for all the info

[Hern]

Hi Max, I turn ideas into projects when there is money in the bank. I think a 2 litre installed will set you back more than $1100 and will give you some unforseen challenges. The job of throwing in a 2 litre into a Mk1 is a little more tricky than most people think - that's why I had mine done by a knowledgeable VW mechanic. I'd bank on spending $3000-$4000 on a 2E motor replacement to do it properly.
Cops will not know anything when they look at a 2E motor in a MK1 as it looks just like the original. Just tell them there are no illegal mods and it is up to them to prove something is wrong. Cops have no idea - they are not mechanics and sometimes they try to be. Cops are tops but some are dopes. Some of the dopes issue defects which are not legal.
VicRoads follow VSB 14 for vehicle mods - see this link file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/user/My%20Documents/Downloads/VSInumber8Guidetomodificationsformotorvehicles.pdf
VSB 14 section LA applies to an engine and is found here - Vehicle Standards Bulletin 14 (VSB 14)

[maxmg]

Hey hernan it's max the engine is going in this week, thanks again for everything (really saved my ass). In regards to the costing, I definitely think you're right, by the time things are said and done the cost will be much higher than first anticipated. I'm not planning on doing it any time soon, hell I just want to get the cabby running for now. I'll slowly gather parts when they come up online and eventually down the road hopefully I'll be able to source a mk1 hard top 3 door to do the swap into. I think I will grab the knock sensor system, having the option there is always nice and I can always resell it if I go for a full 2.0 swap rather than just the block. In regards to the police issue, I guess it's probably fine. So long as they aren't looking at a ford or a holden, most highway patrol guys do seem kind of clueless.

[eltonking]

I put a 2L block in my mk1 about 2 weeks ago now.
Took me two days, but could have done it quicker if I wasn't waiting for paint to dry
I reused my 1.8L head
I got the 2L given to me for free, and personally wouldn't spend more than $150 on one if I were to source one personally
All parts for the swap I got from TT Tuning for ~$300 delivered (inc. new clutch, head gasket, block off plate, dizzy adapter etc)
Reused existing fuelling setup (carbs etc) as well as all other ancillaries
Don't see why it should cost you any more than $500...
Also I had no prior experience in rebuilding an engine to that degree (short block), but have removed/installed engines in/out of mk1s a few times before

[maxmg]

That's awesome, I have seen a few 2.0's on ebay but they're all 300+ without accessories. Did you use the stock 1.8 exhaust manifold? Is it 4-1 (toilet bowl) or 4-2-1? How did you deal with potential detonation issues?

[eltonking]

Go to the wreckers and get it out of a mk3 yourself. Also gives you a trial run of removing an engine before you work on your own car. I've got 4-1 extractors. Clears fine. Currently the car is in getting tuned on the dyno, bit of pinging as expected going up 200cc in displacement they're not jetted correctly and are running lean as of yesterday.

[roccodingo]

That's awesome info roccodingo
I understood most of it but I'll quickly recap to make sure I understood it all.
So keep the JH head and do a full machine job on it,( machine only what is required ) chuck it on an ADY or similar Mk3 2.0 litre block.

In regards to K jet (CIS?), why switch back to basic, is it easier to work with? ( hugely simpler, you can pretty well tune it yourself with a mixture analyser and pressure guage )
I'm running CIS lambda at the moment, so going to basic K-jet would mean ditching the O2 sensor? ( yep ) Would the emissions then be handeled by recirculating the exhaust gas? ( no need to do that either, straight out the tailpipe )
I'm completely lost on the info about the 1.6l dizzy's . I know why the drive gear needs changing to fit the ABA block, but confused as to what the benefits of that model are and what you mean by the electronic version. ( distributor advance curve reprofiled to GTI spec which appears to have faster advance and better retard parameters, check for auto electricians in your city that can do this ) Also how do you get it reprofiled to 1600 GTI specs ? Electronic version has no points, uses hall effect to trigger the plugs firing. coil has more spark output giving a greater quality of energy to the plug for higher cylinder pressures, no point wear seeing there is no points )

I understand all the larger block problems you mentioned and the engine mount stiffness. Limited slip diff would also be a dream, but it's a long way down the track ( fair enough )

That's good to know about the knock box cars only being 16v it makes sense. ( sorry , bumm info. Certain 8 valve cars also ran them. The knockbox can be run independantly of the CIS - E or Digi fuelling control just be aware there are Numerous knock boxes available )

Let me see if I understand this, so instead of using a knock sensor system you limited the amount that the timing could advance, in order to stop any detonation problems?

I've found a guy that will sell me all the knock sensor components from a 16v scirrocco, ( yes George ) would it be worth going that route? These are the parts of the knock sensor system, and here is some info I found on wiring it up. Another advantage I see to that is that it comes with a larger throttle body than the stock one that I'm currently running. ( He shows a dizzy from a Mk3 as its not a 16V distrbutor. you dont need all the rest of the kjet control either. Just grab the throttle body from a Mk2 . Knocbox set up from the US should top out at about $180 and buy a new knock sensor if you go down this route )

Again, thanks heaps for all the info

.....................