Adding 2 stroke oil to fuel - Interesting reading!!

[brad]

where do you get 1:8000 for 2 stroke oil?

Isn't the recommended dose for diesels 1:200 and petrol 1:650 ????

I'm not sure what is $76/L either. semi-synth 2SO is about $15/L if you buy it in 4L lots. You can even buy 1L of FB spec for $7.50 at SCA.

[CardinalSin]

Here's an interesting comment from a Skoda specialist garage concerning the effects of 2SO on the DPF.

Well, it was a head chemist at an oil company that told me that mineral 2T oil burns better than a full synthetic, it also has better cushioning and adheres tenaciously to the engine better during intermittent use so protecting them from corrosion rather than draining away like synthetics do. By burning cleaner I mean less oil going down the exhaust pipe rather than keeping the engine cleaner, the trouble with mineral oil in a 2 stroke is that it cokes more than a full synthetic. Real world comparisons in karting have proven him to be correct as, with the semi synthetic, we no longer have oil coming out of our exhaust port and don't have to strip the power valve down and clean it all the time but to be fair that's for spark ignition, under compression ignition maybe it's a different story.

I think the main benefit is the reduction in emissions and soot, which is nothing to do with the placebo effect, at our garage we specialise in Skoda which is a VW product and the amount of sooted/gummed up turbo chargers and egr valves we see are pretty high. UK fuel is not good quality despite what you might believe and supermarket fuel is the worst of them (I know what you are going to say, all fuel comes from the same place, true..ish but the additive pack is different between brands and the base fuel spec is different) most variable vane failures we see are people that use supermarket fuel. 2 stroke oil won't clean a DPF, EGR valve or turbo but halving the amount of soot keeps them clean and it will clean and lubricate all fuel pumps and injectors.

We deal with all makes despite being a Skoda specialist and still see plenty of common rail pump and injector failures due to excessive wear caused by modern diesel fuel. Stanadyne, who are a reasonably big player in the industry, make their own fuel additives to combat this problem. All fuel is made to a price, the bottom line comes first, usually at the expense of our engines!

I'm not sure it makes regenerations easier, that is done by your DPF cleaner which lasts after combustion and saturates the DPF and the carbon/soot build up in there lowering the temp at which carbon/soot burns off thus regenerating it when the exhaust gases get up to temp and the carbon ignites. 2 stroke oil makes the diesel burn cleaner producing less soot so filling the DPF at a slower rate. There are low ash and ashless 2 stroke oils available that won't clog your DPF especially at that dilution rate and as there is less soot the DPF will do less regenerations so if anything should prolong the life of the DPF. Has your Taxi got a DPF? Maybe try it in that?

2 Stroke oil trial in VW PD engines | European and Import Motor Oils | Bob Is The Oil Guy

[Ryeman]

1:8000??? It's 1:200 for diesels and 1:500 for petrol.

I'm only referring to the 250 dosage.....10ml/80L.

[kaanage]

What's 250? I think everyone read your post as 2SO

[wai]

I would be advising caution in using 2 stroke oil as an additive in diesel fuel.

In a 2 stroke engine, the oil is added to the fuel is there to provide all the engine lubrication. It has characteristics that allow it to separate from the fuel and coat the surfaces of the cylinder (from the crankshaft side) and the engine bearings. In an engine with a separate lubrication system, this oil load is now only seen in the combustion chamber and cylinder, but from the cylinder head side, and provides no lubrication for the mechanical parts of the engine. Yes, there is some effect on the valve guides, but this is a minor requirement. On the fuel pump, the fuel itself provides more than enough lubrication.

What you need to be careful of is the interaction of the 2 stroke oil with the fuel, and the gaskets and seals in the fuel system, and the fact that even the best 2 stroke oils will burn with ash as the result. I have had to de-coke many 2 stroke engines (both old and new), and the last thing I would want to do is add something that will increase this.

A DPF, and injection system that can extend the burn into the exhaust cycle to try and burn off the ash may simply mask the potential problems. If there are no reported issues or effects, it may well be because the burn is not changed by that much any way, and the addition i more of a placebo that actually having a beneficial effect, but it may well play havoc with the fuel system.

The biggest danger is when people using it think that if a little is good, then a lot is going to be so much better.

The way I look at is this. It is an open market. If a lubricant manufacturer saw a genuine market opportunity to use something like 2 stroke oil in a diesel engine, there would have been a product on the market already under its own name, and priced at a premium because of the benefits it provided. It would not be marketed as a lubricant for one type of engine but provided as a cheap alternative for another unrelated type of engine. This is no different to the many additives and mods you can do to a petrol engine that supposedly give you this improved engine power. When you drill down you find that if you simply went with the procedures before installing the system, you get the benefits anyway.

Go with it, but just make sure that it is actually providing you with the benefits others claim.

[kaanage]

Rubbish. If the 2 stroke oil separated out like that, then the crankcases would be filled with it in no time.

2 stroke oil is formulated to burn as cleanly and completely as possible and the detergents that enable this also help clean the injectors and cylinders. There are large numbers of people adding 2 stroke oil to their diesels who have had their engines serviced who will attest to how these components fare vs engines running on "pure" diesel with similar usage and mileage.

I have not found a single verifiable instance where 2 stroke oil has led to any of the issues that the nay sayers speculate about but plenty of annecdotal evidence of quieter (injector and pump noise) and cleaner running and a few instances showing the cleaner components during pull downs

[Ryeman]

Does that apply to the latest CRs also?

[CardinalSin]

I would be advising caution in using 2 stroke oil as an additive in diesel fuel.

In a 2 stroke engine, the oil is added to the fuel is there to provide all the engine lubrication. It has characteristics that allow it to separate from the fuel and coat the surfaces of the cylinder (from the crankshaft side) and the engine bearings. In an engine with a separate lubrication system, this oil load is now only seen in the combustion chamber and cylinder, but from the cylinder head side, and provides no lubrication for the mechanical parts of the engine. Yes, there is some effect on the valve guides, but this is a minor requirement. On the fuel pump, the fuel itself provides more than enough lubrication.

What you need to be careful of is the interaction of the 2 stroke oil with the fuel, and the gaskets and seals in the fuel system, and the fact that even the best 2 stroke oils will burn with ash as the result. I have had to de-coke many 2 stroke engines (both old and new), and the last thing I would want to do is add something that will increase this.

A DPF, and injection system that can extend the burn into the exhaust cycle to try and burn off the ash may simply mask the potential problems. If there are no reported issues or effects, it may well be because the burn is not changed by that much any way, and the addition i more of a placebo that actually having a beneficial effect, but it may well play havoc with the fuel system.

The biggest danger is when people using it think that if a little is good, then a lot is going to be so much better.

The way I look at is this. It is an open market. If a lubricant manufacturer saw a genuine market opportunity to use something like 2 stroke oil in a diesel engine, there would have been a product on the market already under its own name, and priced at a premium because of the benefits it provided. It would not be marketed as a lubricant for one type of engine but provided as a cheap alternative for another unrelated type of engine. This is no different to the many additives and mods you can do to a petrol engine that supposedly give you this improved engine power. When you drill down you find that if you simply went with the procedures before installing the system, you get the benefits anyway.

Go with it, but just make sure that it is actually providing you with the benefits others claim.

The properties of mineral based 2SO in petrol are different to those in diesel. In petrol it mixes as a solution and can separate out over time but in diesel it bonds since they are similar in nature. The diesel engine is designed to use this fuel and the 2SO enhances the process making it cleaner but in a petrol engine the 2SO burn is less complete, hence the carbon deposits and smoke.
So what you see in a 2 stroke engine does not apply to a diesel engine.
You will find certain grades of 2SO have zero ash.

This is not something new, it's been around for many years and the results are well documented by the owners.
If you care to read some of the evidence you will find it actually extends the life of the DPF.
The placebo comments are an insult to all the people who have tried this. It's strange that even the skeptics among them report improvements when they dearly wanted to be proven right in their negative attitude. The poorest results are the few that report nothing happened but I have yet to see one negative result, which is ridiculous compared to other comparisons.

So say you had a business and one of your employees told you a little of product 'b'[2SO] when mixed with product 'a'[diesel] resulted in several benefits for the user. One of those benefits being that they will need less of product 'a' and spend less in total. Would you start a marketing campaign and give them a rise or kick their arse and tell them you want to increase sales not reduce them?

Try it yourself rather than casting doubt on the word of decent people who are simply passing on their experience to others.

[Diesel_vert]

The presence of any metallic additives in diesel fuel will lead to an increase in ash formation, which reduces the service life of a diesel particle filter (DPF).

For any product that is to be used as a diesel fuel additive, IMO I foresee no significant impact or reduction in the service life of the DPF if the presence of any metallic additives in such a product is nil or zero.

For vehicles fitted or equipped with a DPF, the balance between improved fuel combustion characteristics, ash formation and operating costs needs to be carefully analysed and managed in order to produce an overall net benefit.

For vehicles not fitted or equipped with a DPF, I imagine the cost benefit analysis would be considerably easier to manage.



EDIT - In addition to the absence of any metallic additives, it is also important that the sulfur content of any product used as a diesel fuel additive be nil or zero (ideally) for reasons of long term DPF durability.

The automotive industry (in the developed market) has gone to great lengths to reduce sulfur content in both fuels and engine lubricants in order to enable exhaust aftertreatment devices. Any reintroduction of sources containing sulfur into this system would IMO be undesirable.

The current limit of European and Australian fuel standards for sulfur content in diesel fuel is a maximum of 10 ppm (or 0.001%).

I do not foresee any product with a sulfur content of no more than the above specification would adversely affect the long term operation of the DPF.

[Ryeman]

?.....

For vehicles fitted or equipped with a DPF, the balance between improved fuel combustion characteristics, ash formation and operating costs needs to be carefully analysed and managed in order to produce an overall net benefit.
..........

That's the point, you need a crystal ball to foretell the future combined with a spreadsheet of know and unknown variable factors.
As much as I love my Yeti it's just another example of 'white goods' particularly with China FTA.

[CardinalSin]

That's the point, you need a crystal ball to foretell the future combined with a spreadsheet of know and unknown variable factors.
As much as I love my Yeti it's just another example of 'white goods' particularly with China FTA.

If you read through the experiences that others have had i'm sure you would be reassured that it's a positive result for the DPF.
That's from actual experience, not just theory.

[Ryeman]

I'm not specifying any one item.
All the potential financial disasters involve DSG, Haldex, injectors, turbo, split ac etc etc
For those not equipped to cope, in a DIY sense, with this complexity need to remember that after 5 years any one of these could make your much loved vehicle a financial black hole in quick time.
New cars are sooo desirable at runout time your own car is living on borrowed time.
"Careful analysis" can be painful.
Believe me, I wish it wasn't so and I could continue to do all my own basic maintenance and KNOW it wouldn't burn me financially but emissions and economy targets are killing the new car as a long term prospect and car salesmen love it!


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[gldgti]

Ahh this old discussion. Last time this was at the top of the heap I was running b100 in all my diesels so it was a moot point for me. Right now, however, I have no B100 to buy near me so I have been on dino diesel for a while.

I took the audi for a fill up tonight and literally as I was walking out of my garage noticed an old bottle of 2SO in the garage, so I emptied it into the tank before I left - about 120ml.

By the time I'd gone to get fuel and then driven back home again round trip of about 4km, the darned thing was purring even more smoothly than usual.

I did try this in one of my old golfs a few years back when I lived in newcastle and didnt have access to bio then either, and remember something similar happening.

I wont advocate its use to anyone who isnt convinced themselves from all the things they can read, but I'll certainly give it a good go for the next few weeks and see what effect it has on economy, if any. Personally, I have nothing to lose.

[kaanage]

I'll certainly give it a good go for the next few weeks and see what effect it has on economy, if any.

I will also be interesting to see of the Audi starts blowing smoke for a day or so

[wai]

I will also be interesting to see of the Audi starts blowing smoke for a day or so

Just so long as it doesn't start to sound like a Trabant