ECU tune and emission requirements

[JonP01]

Hi,

I recently enquired with a highly regarded tuning firm about the effect an ECU tune may have on meeting Australian exhaust emission requirements. The reason I asked them was because my insurer tells me they are happy to insure any modification to my vehicle so long as the modification would pass an RTA inspection (i.e. It needs to be fully compliant and legal).

Given that a high quality ECU tune will be adjusting amongst other things AFR, timing and boost pressures, I think the question is a reasonable one. A quick Google search brings up a number of stories regarding vehicles with modified ECU software failing an emission test. Often in these cases the owner had to reflash the ECU back to stock to pass the test.

It is further comcerning to me that possibly no customers would have needed to have an inspection yet in the case of my particular vehicle, since the model only first came out a few years ago and the associated tune that I was thinking of purchasing came out in 2011.

So for anyone who has had their VW's ECU software modified, have you since had an RTA (or whatever the relevant body is in your state) inspection and passed emissions testing with that modified software? If so, what tuning company did you use and did the tuning company have some sort of certification that the tune maintained the same emission standard (or better) of the stock vehicle?

Thanks

[ViezuAustralia]

Hi JonP01

Thought I'd answer this as Viezu is the world leading authority when it comes to emissions reduction mapping services through our Blue Optimize services...

This probably tells you all you need to know:

Happy to answer any questions - if you like please Email me directly - simon@viezu.com.au and we can go through it all in detail.

Thanks v much

Simon

[Guy_H]

Here is some reading for you - it's from 2008 but is still relevant today. The new NCOP does not alter it.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com/forums/f15/engineers-certificate-remap-23462.html

Basically the roadside tests (which is where most cars come under scrutiny) where they use a "tailpipe sniffer" will need to see good efficient catalyst installed (200 cell has been known to pass these tests, 100 cell has been known to fail).

A quality remap and no other mods, you shouldn't have an issue.

Let us know if you need further information.

I

[JonP01]

Thanks very much for the replies and in particular the link to the engineer's certificate thread. My searching did not being up that thread, so I appreciate that very much.

I think after reading all of the relevant material I have decided that ECU tuning is not for me. I wanted the most powerful manual transmission Polo available but unfortunately that is only the 77TSI model. I would have happily bought a more powerful model if VW actually sold such a car, it had a manual transmission and still had the same size wheels and tyres and suspension as mine (for comfort). Not likely that such a car would ever be sold in this day and age though. It seems if you want a very small performance car these days (4 metres in length or less) you have to have a "sports" suspension, undertrays or bodywork that scrapes the road surface every time you go into or out of a driveway and huge wheels with tyres that barely hold any more air than a baby mouse's lungs. I guess there just isn't a specific new car market for people like me. I am 25 years out of date

Thanks again

[Mysticality]

Buy a sports model, and offer to swap out the springs with someone who has the standard model - people are all over things like that!

Springs and rims/tyres, you can probably even get cash your way.

[JonP01]

Buy a sports model, and offer to swap out the springs with someone who has the standard model - people are all over things like that!

Springs and rims/tyres, you can probably even get cash your way.

Prima facie that is a very logical and sensible suggestion. That could, however, conceivably be even more of a legal and practical minefield than an ECU modification. Bottom line is I would have to be somewhere between amazingly keen to outright desperate to try that. If you go to the VSCCS section of the RTA website and download the documentation relating to wheel and suspension modifications, one would have to be incredibly keen and highly knowledgeable to pursue that avenue and end up with a properly certified car that was as safe as the original. It needs to be remembered above all else that a high performance car requires a suspension, wheel and tyre package designed to cope with the engine power. It is very likely that "downgrading" the suspension, wheels and tyres to make the car much more comfortable may infact make the vehicle less safe, even if it managed to still meet the VCSSC legal requirements (which are strict enough as it is).

The VSCCS documentation is very technical and I personally would not want to attempt something like that unless I was highly experienced. It would be far easier for me to simply build a garden shed, thereby liberating the extra space in the garage so as to fit a manual Falcon 6 cylinder turbo in there, and then tell my Mum that she will have to pick me up and drive me to her house for the weekly visits, since the Falcon can't be safely parked in her street and won't fit in her driveway (her street is literally slightly wider than a driveway but still two-way, which was the main reason I had to stick with a car no bigger than a Polo).

Anyway, the RTA website also seems to make it pretty clear as to what can be changed on a car without requiring an engineer's certification. NCOP3 1.2 states that a modification requires certification in the instance where:

"....Modifying the engine and engine components (that) results in an increase in engine power
of more than 20% and/or affects exhaust emissions...."

So, in respect of the Polo 1.2 TSI, any ECU modification that results in a maximum power output of more than 92.4 kilowatts for the Polo 1.2 TSI requires an engineer's certificate for that individual vehicle. So in NSW, for instance, the Stage 1 DNA Tune (100 kW) requires an engineering certifcate. No ifs and no buts. It is crystal clear written in black and white (well, with a bit of blue thrown-in too). One might try to argue that they had a "great" engine to begin with and it already had 84 stock kW (meaning the power increase would be just under the 20% limit). But I doubt the law would see it that way, since in the absence of any pre-existing individual tests for that car, they would simply take the manufacturer's quoted output as a starting point.

The only gray area so far as I am concerned would now seem to be what the word "affects" means. The RTA could have used the word "increase", but they use the word "affects". To me, "affects" means cause a change. Which really means anything done to the ECU needs certification, even if the tune does not increase power beyond 20%. Though I think even I would likely sleep at night if, for instance, I bought a tune that improved fuel economy, since I could not see for the life of me how that would make the emissions worse, but then again I am not an emissions engineer.

So, who can tune a Polo 1.2 TSI to 92.399999 kw and not a smidgeon more? Sort of makes the whole idea a pointless pursuit unless you can buy a tune that guarantees better fuel economy, smoother performance, no flat spots, much better torque, but no more than 92 kW of power. I don't think many of the tuning companies would even consider offering such a "modest" product, since they would probably think their customers would expect more for their money.

Incidentally, I have emailed a certified VSCCS engineer just to ask him what the procedure for certification would involve in these cases and how much it costs. He will probably laugh at me and not even reply (which is fine, better to ask a dumb question that pretend I know the answer and continue to be ignorant). But if he replies, I will try to report what he says if appropriate. At least these engineers are not hard to find and the RTA make it easy to locate one who is local to you. But with emissions testing, there are apparently only a few places in NSW that can do it, although there is a statement in the VCSSC documentation stating that the RTA are attempting to create a simplified "5 gases" test that is far more widely available (that update was in September 2012, with no further updates since then).

[JonP01]

Interesting...I just found an alternative product for the Polo - the BSR tune. It is more conservative at 91 kw, thereby coming in under the VSCCS threshold by 1.4 kW (but produces a nice torque increase of 24 nm). It is as if BSR are aware of the legal issues and have deliberately made the tune conservative so as to avoid certifcation hassles and expenses (the certification can otherwise add anything from $600 or $1,000 upwards to your ECU tune costs in the event power increases by more than 20%).They will also take over the engine and power train warranty.

I then rang the VSCCS hotline to confirm my way of thinking and I am correct - there is no certifcation required for the BSR tune but certification is required by any tune producing more than 20% power over stock. I then asked about the emissions and they said in this case, so long as I do not physically remove or alter any of the physical emission contros, everything is fine.

[Ideo]

In all honesty, unless you are trying to do Maccas tray drifting then no police officer will look twice at your car.

Ergo, you are getting unduly concerned over nothing.

[Deadpool]

ECU tune and emission requirements

Gotta agree with the guys here. You're not going to get looked at twice in a 77TSI Polo. You're as likely to get defected for emissions on that thing as a Prius is. :p


Sent from my GTI using Tapatalk.

[Lucas_R]

ECU tune and emission requirements

In all honesty, unless you are trying to do Maccas tray drifting then no police officer will look twice at your car.

Ergo, you are getting unduly concerned over nothing.

+1 way overly concerned over nothing mate. Cops dont even look twice at modded GTI's and R's so a humble Polo 77 isnt even going to raise an eyebrow. Cant go wrong with the 100kw tune from DNA either.

[JonP01]

I am not concerned about the police or being pulled over, etc. In 30 years of driving the only thing I have ever been pulled over for are random breath tests. The concerns are legal ones. All modifications need to be mentioned on an insurance policy and the insurer requires that the car pass all ADRs after any modification. What can and cannot be done is clearly spelt out on the various documents downloable from the Roads and Maritime website. In the event of claim on the insurance for whatever reason, the insurer would be perfectly within their rights to deny a claim unless the vehicle had the appropriate VSCCS certification to prove the vehicle still complies with the ADRs. There is a distinct legal difference between being "pretty sure" there is no problem versus having an official certificate to say there isn't a problem. Most likely the car would still comply - I don't doubt that - but that is insufficent in the eyes of the law and my insurance company (and I don't blame either the law makers or my insuance company for this - I would do the same if I were in their shoes).

Sure, the chances are very high that I am worrying about nothing from a practical perspective (as opposed to a legal perspective) but that does not change the fact that in NSW a car cannot have it's power increased by more than 20% without requiring a certified engineer's report. And without that report then my insurer can simply tell me that they will not pay up in the event of a claim. And yes, I could then probably take my insurer to court and possibly win. But that isn't worth the hassle, time or expense imo.

So it is far easier to simply play by the rules from the get-go rather than to test them and hope for the best.

[Deadpool]

I absolutely understand where you're coming from man. It's a risk and some others are willing to take it. Coming from Orange, NSW myself with a highly modified car I know how stringent the laws can be in regards to that. I was with RACV in NSW an they insure an unlimited amount of legal modifications, not sure who would be so stringent against you.

Best of luck with the Tune though. I'm sure VIEZU can really help you out in that regard.

[The_Hawk]

That is a very interesting point on the certification required and I'm really interested to hear what an engineer would say.

I wonder if Stage 1 now needs a brake upgrade to be legal in NSW?

I thought you could buy "engineered" parts that were already pre tested and approved for install... (or am I just making stuff up?) I wonder if the tuners would (or should) have these things pre-approved or have a local engineer bailed up who understands they are doing the same thing again and again (for a stage 1 anyway).

[Andypants]

I also think you should still get the tune Jon.

In terms of insurance my thought is change companies to one that will support the modified ECU. Who are you insured with now?

I see where your coming from on the pulling over front: Even in my overtly modded Skyline I was only ever pulled over once. When I took the car in for the inspection the most I had to do was wind up the ride height of my coilovers. When it came to emissions not an eye was blinked over the massive 3" gaping pipe I had bolted to the back of by turbo, least of all the Air / Fuel controller sitting on the dash in plain view.

That said I preface this with the fact that things are a bit more Cowboy out West

Honestly... tune that Polo and enjoy mate

[The_Hawk]

While I think we can all agree that the chances of being pulled over or questioned are slim to none and that there are insurers that accept modified vehicles, all of them, even the least strict ones say the mods must be legal as a condition of insurance. As has been pointed out an ECU tune it seems would may very well require certification.

Again, it's unlikely the tune would ever be called into question, but the fact remains that there is a line in the sand and an ECU tune is likely on the other side of that line.

Nationals Standards are here:
Standards Bulletin VSB6

And they say you must also comply with any local requirements.

1.1 BASIC MODIFICATIONS NOT REQUIRING CERTIFICATION
The following are Basic Modifications that may be performed without certification providing the modifications are carried out in compliance with the requirements detailed in Clause 2 General Requirements:
* Fitting a replacement new, used or reconditioned engine;
* Fitting a manufacturer’s optional engine together with any associated components as
supplied by the manufacturer for that same model vehicle;
* Fitting replacement original equipment engine and exhaust components;
* Fitting replacement original equipment, equivalent or better, components that have no influence on engine performance or emissions (e.g. higher volume oil pump than original); and
* Fitting equivalent engines with an increase of up to 20% of original power.
In all of the above cases, if the engine is modified, it must be certified under the relevant Code
of Section LA.

1.2 MODIFICATIONS REQUIRING CERTIFICATION UNDER LA CODES

The following is a summary of modifications that may be performed under Section LA:

* Fitting engines greater than 120% of original power and/or engine mass;
* Fitting performance engines;
* Fitting engines from non original equipment sources;
* Installing a supercharger or turbocharger; and
* Modifying the engine and engine components that results in an increase in engine power of more than 20% and/or affects exhaust emissions.

To break these things down in relation to an ECU tune:

Potentially Acceptable:
* Fitting a replacement new, used or reconditioned engine;
Nope, not doing that.
* Fitting a manufacturer’s optional engine together with any associated components as supplied by the manufacturer for that same model vehicle;
Nope, not doing that.
* Fitting replacement original equipment engine and exhaust components;
Nope, not doing that.
* Fitting replacement original equipment, equivalent or better, components that have no influence on engine performance or emissions (e.g. higher volume oil pump than original); and
Nope, not doing that.
* Fitting equivalent engines with an increase of up to 20% of original power.
Nope, not doing that.

So we don't fall into the acceptable category.

Requiring certification:

* Fitting engines greater than 120% of original power and/or engine mass;
Nope, not doing that.
* Fitting performance engines;
Nope, not doing that.
* Fitting engines from non original equipment sources;
Nope, not doing that.
* Installing a supercharger or turbocharger; and
Nope, not doing that.
* Modifying the engine and engine components that results in an increase in engine power of more than 20% and/or affects exhaust emissions.

Modifying the engine… maybe, not with a stage 1. Modifying the components… well I suppose the ECU is a component… so yep. Looks like this would apply.


BUT, and I'm thinking out loud here:

I can legally put a GTI motor into a lessor model without certification?
Then tune it to 158.4kW without certification…

Now since it's the same chassis and all, could I potentially call tweaking the 77TSI "Fitting equivalent engines with an increase of up to 20% of original power" (based on the max powered unit in the chassis??)

Of course if you are starting with a GTI (or R) there doesn't seem to be any wiggle room since you're just adding more power in excess of the 20%…


In any case, it really does have me interested.