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Tyresome decisions

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Martin View Post
    Absolutely!!!

    This year I have been racing the FWD Nissan Pulsar and have learnt just how savage FWD lift off under steer can be, it's caught me out big time in three different circumstances.

    While stiffer rear sway bars help FWD handling they also exaggerate FWD lift off under steer which is why I don't like seeing people putting stiff rear sway bars into street FWD cars (doing both front and rear sway bars is safer)
    I'm guessing you mean oversteer, not understeer

    You're dead right. While increasing the rear roll stiffness relative to the front helps make the car "point", most drivers can't handle the lift off oversteer that is the result - especially with the big "solid axle conversion kits" that a lot of people fit. I've been on a cruise where an R32 ended up off the road due to this.

    On tight circuits, I run my rear anti-roll bar at a stiffer setting but for fast circuits and road usage, I back it off for more stability. And I only added the rear anti-roll bar in conjunction to having a stiffer one fitted to the front so that the balance was maintained with the rear bar in the lightest position.

    The legendary Peugeots of the early/mid '80s were terrifically responsive because lift off oversteer was designed into them. But they're not allowed to build cars like that any more - too many drivers would end up in ditches and walls due to the dumbing down of cars with driving aids to suit the lowest common denominator (ESP/ABS/TC).

    Originally posted by brad View Post
    I'm not really convinced that eco-tyres can also offer the best grip & road holding.
    ^ this. They have made huge advances in increasing grip with low rolling resistance tyres but they apply those same advances to performance tyres to increase their grip without increasing rolling resistance so you will always have to make a choice on your priorities.

    That said, a lower grip tyre can be hugely entertaining as long as it is predictable and progressive when it reaches its cornerning limits
    Last edited by kaanage; 20-10-2015, 04:03 PM.
    Resident grumpy old fart
    VW - Metallic Paint, Radial Tyres, Laminated Windscreen, Electric Windows, VW Alloy Wheels, Variable Geometry Exhaust Driven Supercharger, Direct Unit Fuel Injection, Adiabatic Ignition, MacPherson Struts front, Torsion Beam rear, Coil Springs, Hydraulic Dampers, Front Anti-Roll Bar, Disc Brakes, Bosch ECU, ABS

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    • #32
      A few years back my son took an early Hybrid Camry for a ride in the Adelaide Hills.
      He drives a bit harder than I do and apparently he scared himself a quite a bit on a couple of corners.
      I think it was the combination of the extra car weight and the poor cornering grip offered by those early low rolling resistance tyres that nearly brought him undone.
      He was used to other more conventionally powered and tyred Camrys and had no issues with them.

      I have been reading the customer reviews on tyres and while some are totally contradictory if you read enough you do notice trends.
      My Dunlop SportMaxx RT tyres are generally well reviewed (matching my own experiences) but with most complaining about low tyre life.
      I am probably doing better than most for wear as my Octavia is lighter and less powerful than those fitted on other cars and I generally don't drive in a spirited fashion.

      It seems that there is also an underlying commentary that tyre performance deteriorates with wear and age.
      As I am currently only doing about 15k km a year I am not sure it is necessarily a good idea to put tyres on that may last me 80k.

      I cycle a bit and notice that (expensive) modern performance cycle tyres can be prone to hardening and cracking in under two years when exposed to UV. On the other hand I have a 50 yo utility bike with (real) rubber Dunlop tyres I fitted 30 years ago and apart from minimal wear still exhibit as new flexibility and feel.
      I would not be surprised if modern car tyre compounds deteriorate similarly especially in the harsh Australian sun.

      Another surprise is how just much prices can vary for the same tyre in different sizes.
      Just looking at a JAX on-line store prices for a specific Goodyear: 205x50x16-$180 and 225x45x17-$305.

      I'll just say that it I am learning a lot, and thanks to everyone for their input so far.
      Last edited by Gerrycan; 21-10-2015, 09:27 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by kaanage View Post
        I'm guessing you mean oversteer, not understeer
        Whoops - yes, I did mean oversteer (I'll edit the post)

        On the low rolling resistance tyres, a friend of a friend asked me for help getting new tyres for her hybrid car
        Looking at the tyres on the car, they were pretty skinny and I was shocked that she had badly worn the outside edges of the tyres
        (Only the outside edges - not an under inflation problem)
        I mentioned that she needed to have the tyres flipped over on the rims periodically - but this significantly increases her maintenance costs
        Then I discovered that these low rolling resistance tyres are a funny size and are hard to source and are very expensive
        The price negated any likely operational savings from the low rolling resistance
        And I remember the UK video of poor braking performance from low rolling resistance tyres
        In the end we used normal tyres than cost 60% of the low rolling resistance tyres
        2012.1 Skoda Octavia VRS DSG Wagon - Carbonio cold air intake and pipe - HPA Motorsports BBK 355mm rotors 6 pot calipers
        APR Stage II ECU - APR 3" exhaust down pipe & high flow catalyst
        APR/HP Roll bars - Eibach springs and Bilstien shocks
        Supaloy lower control arms - Enkei 18*8 Wheels

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Gerrycan View Post
          Another surprise is how much prices can vary for the same tyre in different sizes.
          Just looking at a JAX on-line store prices for a specific Goodyear: 205x50x16-$180 and 225x45x17-$305.
          The tyres price variation is huge
          The RRP is nothing more than an invitation to be gouged - it's insulting and annoying
          If you shop around and actually ring or visit places you can get a much better price

          Michelin PS3 225x45x17 $172
          MICHELIN 225/45R17 91Y PILOT SPORT 3
          2012.1 Skoda Octavia VRS DSG Wagon - Carbonio cold air intake and pipe - HPA Motorsports BBK 355mm rotors 6 pot calipers
          APR Stage II ECU - APR 3" exhaust down pipe & high flow catalyst
          APR/HP Roll bars - Eibach springs and Bilstien shocks
          Supaloy lower control arms - Enkei 18*8 Wheels

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Gerrycan View Post
            A few years back my son took an early Hybrid Camry for a ride in the Adelaide Hills.
            He drives a bit harder than I do and apparently he scared himself a quite a bit on a couple of corners.
            I think it was the combination of the extra car weight and the poor cornering grip offered by those early low rolling resistance tyres that nearly brought him undone.
            He was used to other more conventionally powered and tyred Camrys and had no issues with them.
            Some change in mindset is required if switching from performance to low rolling resistance tyres but it's not as dramatic as many would believe as they tend to squeal a lot earlier which puts a lot of people off.

            I've dropped Golf GTi's and R's on a cruise over wet, mountain roads with my diesel Polo shod with 175 width Michelin XM2's so it's not all about pure grip.
            Resident grumpy old fart
            VW - Metallic Paint, Radial Tyres, Laminated Windscreen, Electric Windows, VW Alloy Wheels, Variable Geometry Exhaust Driven Supercharger, Direct Unit Fuel Injection, Adiabatic Ignition, MacPherson Struts front, Torsion Beam rear, Coil Springs, Hydraulic Dampers, Front Anti-Roll Bar, Disc Brakes, Bosch ECU, ABS

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Gerrycan View Post
              He was used to other more conventionally powered and tyred Camrys and had no issues with them.
              We had the V6 Camry in the work fleet for a while - the chassis simply isn't up to the task. Nice cruiser though - great engine.

              It seems that there is also an underlying commentary that tyre performance deteriorates with wear and age.
              As I am currently only doing about 15k km a year I am not sure it is necessarily a good idea to put tyres on that may last me 80k.
              ^^^^this. Very smart. Ideally 3 years and change.


              Another surprise is how just much prices can vary for the same tyre in different sizes.
              Just looking at a JAX on-line store prices for a specific Goodyear: 205x50x16-$180 and 225x45x17-$305.
              That ITT site that Martin linked to has some good prices & the freight isn't expensive (about $70 to Adelaide). Another $100 to fit/balance. It's also worth looking at the Tempe Tyres site.

              Prices vary depending on the popularity of the tyre. 235/45r17 are about 20% cheaper than 225/45r17 because the 235 are a Falcadore size. I'd be inclined to fit them if I had 17" rims.
              carandimage The place where Off-Topic is On-Topic
              I used to think I was anal-retentive until I started getting involved in car forums

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by brad View Post

                That ITT site that Martin linked to has some good prices & the freight isn't expensive (about $70 to Adelaide). Another $100 to fit/balance. It's also worth looking at the Tempe Tyres site.

                Prices vary depending on the popularity of the tyre. 235/45r17 are about 20% cheaper than 225/45r17 because the 235 are a Falcadore size. I'd be inclined to fit them if I had 17" rims.
                As I said at the outset I don't need to make any changes just yet but I hate making costly decisions at short notice and deals around now will probably not be available come change time, plus my selection criteria is likely to be different to most of the other more sporting enthusiasts on this site, albeit those enthusiasts are more knowledgeable about tyre characteristics than most.

                None of my vehicles over the last 40 years have had any sporting pretensions whatsoever.
                The Mk2 Octavia 1.9d wagon I got 7 years ago had 15 inch rims with Dunlop fitted and (you may laugh) compared to my previous vehicles it was a driving revelation.
                The Dunlop tyres sawtoothed within 10k and were changed by 20k because the noise was unbearable. I thought it was the tyres fault but realise now it was alignment. The Yokohama replacements were ok, a lot quieter but the handling never was as entertaining as the Dunlop at their best.
                I won't make that mistake again with the Mk3.

                Brad's suggestion about the 235x45x17 tyres is interesting and the minimal increase in circumference are within legal requirements and may help to make the speedo a tiny bit more accurate.
                I would have to weigh up whether buying on-line and fitting locally is actually cost effective.

                I notice the Conti 5's seem to win most recent comparisons and they seem to be very competitively priced (including fitting etc) through the SA distributors at the moment (they may not be when I want them).

                Comment


                • #38
                  Ask Splashalot about Conti5 - he has them on his GTI.

                  When I was selling tyres I used to upsell a lot of people that didn't "drive like Fangio". It was unbelievable how many came back and thanked me for convincing them to spend the extra money (I refrained from thanking them for the boost to my bonus).

                  Even though these people weren't "fast drivers" they appreciated that the car went around corners with less fuss (and noise), that generally the steering wheel didn't need to be turned as far (and the steering was lighter) and how much better the braking was (especially in the wet).

                  For 95% of your driving you can get away with fairly crap tyres - the other 5% you need something really good.

                  I think your method of research is commendable as you are looking at the features that matter.
                  Last edited by brad; 21-10-2015, 01:47 PM.
                  carandimage The place where Off-Topic is On-Topic
                  I used to think I was anal-retentive until I started getting involved in car forums

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                  • #39
                    I had a feeling the 235 size tyres were too big for the RIM width with the PS3s. Thats my last recollection anyway.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      You are probably right, looking at the placard the 7Jx17 rims are ok for smaller widths but not bigger

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by woofy View Post
                        I had a feeling the 235 size tyres were too big for the RIM width with the PS3s. Thats my last recollection anyway.
                        in 18" 40 series yes they are outside of the manufacturers limit of 8"-9.5". Gerrycan has 17" 45 series

                        Originally posted by Gerrycan View Post
                        You are probably right, looking at the placard the 7Jx17 rims are ok for smaller widths but not bigger
                        Only 7" on yours? I've assumed all the 17" rims on VW/Audis/Skodas are 7.5" (all the ones I've bought / almost bought were) which are fine for a 235/45r17 (7.5"-9"). Proof that you should never assume.
                        carandimage The place where Off-Topic is On-Topic
                        I used to think I was anal-retentive until I started getting involved in car forums

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                        • #42
                          Every mazda I have ever owned had narrow rims as well which meant I was always stuck getting expensive odd sized tyres.

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                          • #43
                            I wanted to put 225/45r18 on mine the other day, but the tyre shop said it would be illegal.
                            I didn't think it would've been an issue.
                            The std size is 225/40r18.
                            I was after some more tyre height for a bit more quietness and comfort.

                            Ended up getting the ContiMaxContact instead of the usual ContiSportContact.
                            MY17 Superb 162TSI, Business Grey, Tech+Comfort Pack, APR ECU+TCU Stg 1, SLA, Rieger Splitter + Side Skirts, Eibach Pro-Kit Springs, Hardrace Swaybar, TPMS
                            sigpic

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                            • #44
                              You would need to reduce the width to increase the profile

                              Looks like you may have purchased MC5's?
                              They have a reputation for poor mileage
                              2012.1 Skoda Octavia VRS DSG Wagon - Carbonio cold air intake and pipe - HPA Motorsports BBK 355mm rotors 6 pot calipers
                              APR Stage II ECU - APR 3" exhaust down pipe & high flow catalyst
                              APR/HP Roll bars - Eibach springs and Bilstien shocks
                              Supaloy lower control arms - Enkei 18*8 Wheels

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by dArK5HaD0w View Post
                                I wanted to put 225/45r18 on mine the other day, but the tyre shop said it would be illegal.
                                I didn't think it would've been an issue.
                                The std size is 225/40r18.
                                I was after some more tyre height for a bit more quietness and comfort.
                                .
                                In what way did they say they would be illegal? load rating, make the speedo read really wrong?

                                A lot of places use made up legalities to cover their own arse.

                                /looks at sizes... Based on my experience with my car, they probably would have rubbed under hard cornering bumps and your speedo would have been 100 speedo = 102 actual which isn't good.

                                You'd be better off reverting to 16"x7.5 with 225/55r16 or 17x7.5 with 235/45r17
                                carandimage The place where Off-Topic is On-Topic
                                I used to think I was anal-retentive until I started getting involved in car forums

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