Tyresome decisions

[Martin]

Interesting tyre history Brad!

What's the advice on switching radial tyres side to side these days?

It's more than switching radials, these are directional tyres with an asymmetric tread
Due to a mistake at the end of a track day I ran the front tyres on the wrong side for 5k - only noticed during a visual inspection

Most of the guys racing Mazda MX5's using R rated semi slicks (which are directional) intentionally swap sides trying to milk the most out of a set - no problems

With regard to tyre rotation on FWD I have been running a different strategy for the last 3~4 years
Rotating the tyres wears out the entire set
So I leave the rears alone, they are good for over 80k
I go through two sets on the front to one set on the rear
So I use 6 tires in a similar time/distance to using 8 with regular rotation around the car
You do have inspect the tyres and make sure you don't have alignment problem - but we should be going that anyway
(My habit of charging at roundabouts puts a little pressure on this strategy creating the need to balance front wear side to side)

[Martin]

After working on the brakes of my wife's Mazda 3 yesterday I now have to take back my comments about "charging at roundabouts"
I discovered that my wife (who is a very timid driver) has also worn the left tire more than the right tire
2~3 years of traversing 3 roundabouts seems to take it's toll on the left front (of FWD cars at least)

[woofy]

I've always been under the impression in FWD cars that the better tread tyres go on the front, ie the driving axle? Certainly the car dealers swap them around that way, ie Mazda, Hyundai, Skoda/Audi that I deal regularly with. The only thing Hyundai didn't do that they themselves say, was swap the spare out into the mix as it's the same wheel. Too late now.

[brad]

No, better tyres on the rear for FWD. In short, it's because the average driver can control under-steer better than over-steer.

Interestingly, due to the "illusory superiority" effect, 70-80% of drivers (varies with country of survey) claim to be better than average. (ref: Comparative Perceptions of Driver Ability - A Conformation and Expansion. McCormick / Walkey / Green).

I believe the Kiwi's first noted an issue with the influx of used grey import FWD Japanese cars back in the 70s. There was a quantum increase in single vehicle accidents (the fact that the jap cars were twice as quick as all the Pommie crap they were used to didn't help either). One of the contributing factors was that the rear tyres had a tendency to skid (on gravel / course chip) or aquaplane in the wet. This was partly due to the habit of fitting the best tyres on the steer/drive tyres (it makes sense for the axle that does the most work to get the best tyre) and partly due to the aging of the tyres (some rear tyres that had never been rotated looked OK but were 8-10 years old) and partly due to some really crap drivers that couldn't transition from Wolseley 24/80s to Mitsubishi Mirages.

I think this article says it best where the "expert" says that the idea of "fit the best tyres to the rear or you will die" is probably a bit extreme.

As I said, I try & do it but it is near impossible if you rotate your tyres as well. The best you can do is try & keep the rears somewhere near the front.

[nat225]

so in effect, use the old tyres at the rears and grippy new tyres at the front = fwd conversion to rwd effect [emoji14]

should be good to help the car rotate during motorkhanas



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[Martin]

No, better tyres on the rear for FWD. In short, it's because the average driver can control under-steer better than over-steer.

Absolutely!!!

This year I have been racing the FWD Nissan Pulsar and have learnt just how savage FWD lift off over steer can be, it's caught me out big time in three different circumstances.

While stiffer rear sway bars help FWD handling they also exaggerate FWD lift off over steer which is why I don't like seeing people putting stiff rear sway bars into street FWD cars (doing both front and rear sway bars is safer)

[Martin]

Certainly the car dealers swap them around that way, ie Mazda, Hyundai, Skoda/Audi that I deal regularly with.

Trouble is they just swap the wheels without any inspection or thought

Years ago my wife destroyed the left front wheel hitting a large rock at 70kmph
I was busy with work and let the insurance deal with it
The car was under warranty at that stage so we were still using Mazda service

The first problem post repair was the wife complaining of noise in the rear
I discovered the repairer was not technically competent enough to stow the spare wheel
It was upside down and not secured
This was a warning sign which I failed to react to

The repair job didn't do a wheel alignment - subsequent usage destroyed the front tyres
(my wife is unable to detect this and didn't mention to me that the car was not behaving normally)
So the dealer service rotated the tyres - which destroyed the rear set which were put on the front
We went to a social event and used the Madza - first time I had driven the Mazda in 9 months
I was horrified with the road noise and steering feel - a quick inspection of the tyres made realize they were all toast - $$$

There have been a number of situations like this - if I don't get involved in the car repairs, problems occur and persist

[woofy]

Hmm the problem is, and why they would rotate it that way is that the fronts wear way faster over time. You would end up with the situation described earlier where the rears were static and the fronts kept getting replaced. After 6-mths our fronts are always lower than the rears which seem to hardly change at all.

[dportaz]

I have the Eagle F1 AS2's on my RS... together with koni FSD's, Eibach springs and Whiteline swaybar it gives unbelievable amount of grip, and amazingly there aint to much difference even when its wet...

Only problem I have with these tyres is treadwear... I dont know if im doing something different but I will get max 20k out of these... on 15k now and they are already pretty low.

I dont hammer off the line, its mainly cornering that I push it but to hear people getting 40k+ out of these tyres is making me think something aint right... Got em done at Jax and also got Nitrogen and havent needed a top up at all.

No way can I afford $1k per year/20kms... Ideally I would like to get 40k out of them..

Thoughts..?

[nat225]

I have the Eagle F1 AS2's on my RS... together with koni FSD's, Eibach springs and Whiteline swaybar it gives unbelievable amount of grip, and amazingly there aint to much difference even when its wet...

Only problem I have with these tyres is treadwear... I dont know if im doing something different but I will get max 20k out of these... on 15k now and they are already pretty low.

I dont hammer off the line, its mainly cornering that I push it but to hear people getting 40k+ out of these tyres is making me think something aint right... Got em done at Jax and also got Nitrogen and havent needed a top up at all.

No way can I afford $1k per year/20kms... Ideally I would like to get 40k out of them..

Thoughts..?

alignment??

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[brad]

I have the Eagle F1 AS2's on my RS... together with koni FSD's, Eibach springs and Whiteline swaybar it gives unbelievable amount of grip, and amazingly there aint to much difference even when its wet...

No way can I afford $1k per year/20kms... Ideally I would like to get 40k out of them..

Thoughts..?

First thought is that you are paying over the odds for tyres. I can get 225/40r18 F1A2 for $210 each.

Does 20k include any front to back rotations?

What pressure are you running?

Who does your alignments?

WHen was the last alignment done? What were the readings?

Does the tyre wear look even or is there edge or centre wear or anything else odd?

Assume you are on factory 18x7.5"?

[dportaz]

First thought is that you are paying over the odds for tyres. I can get 225/40r18 F1A2 for $210 each.

Does 20k include any front to back rotations?

What pressure are you running?

Who does your alignments?

WHen was the last alignment done? What were the readings?

Does the tyre wear look even or is there edge or centre wear or anything else odd?

Assume you are on factory 18x7.5"?

First thought is that you are paying over the odds for tyres. I can get 225/40r18 F1A2 for $210 each.
a) $1k were for the tyres, inc fitting, balanced, alignment, nitrogen.. Best I could find locally to me as I had popped both my left tyres so couldn't drive to far. I know that moving forward I'll have more time hopefully so can get all that for $900...

Does 20k include any front to back rotations?
Yes - done one rotation so far and will probably do another one.

What pressure are you running?
I believe it was set at around 38..

Who does your alignments?
Jax did the allignment

WHen was the last alignment done? What were the readings?
15k ago in Jan. Not sure.

Does the tyre wear look even or is there edge or centre wear or anything else odd?
Tyre wear is even..

Assume you are on factory 18x7.5"?
Yes, 225/40/18

[brad]

Where is "locally to you"?

[nat225]

could be defective tyres if you kill a set of f1a2 in 20k km [emoji14]




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[woofy]

We have clocked over 60k in the original fitted Micheline PE2s, had even wear the whole way through and still have tread left. Probably will replace them later this year, although we will be selling the car soon, and there is plenty of tread left really. Plan to put PS3s on it. Really haven't found an answer to how you are supposed to rotate the tyres with the proposed newer way of rotating. If you always have the better tyres at the back on a FWD, the only option is to swap them side to side. The rear tyres will never been worn more. So your only option is to wear out the fronts, replace them and put the new on the back and the rear on the front. And hope you like the same brand of tyre as it will be a rare time you could replace them all at once and get another type.