DSG woes in The Age

[DionM]

Well I've just flicked an email to the local VW dealer.

Back at the service in 2011 I was experiencing relatively frequent hesitation particularly around when the gearbox would normally shift gears (but sometimes wouldn't - it would falter and then continue accelerating and shift higher up in the rev range). I reported it, nought came of it back then as it is intermittent - can't demonstrate it, they don't do anything (and I get that, but I always make sure it is noted on my service invoice).

Anyway, I'll see what they do with it now under their new 'campaign' (mine has the 6spd wet clutch). It's already going back for a full day diagnostic look at an issue I reported with second gear shift crunching (again, intermittent) so no skin off my nose to raise it again.

[muli]

There are whispers that Ford Powershift (dry clutch) is suffering from the same problems as the DQ200 box. Shuddering on takeoff, missing gears/false neutrals, weird noises as it changes gears.

There was few reports on fordforums that I read off, joined up to have a look as we were looking at a ford focus titanium diesel at the time.
We drove one and it was hesitant off the line and jerked if I was hesitant with the throttle. This was probly my error as had driven a mondeo diesel previously and it was lag lag lag next thing you know it was like a driving a early 90's sierra cosworth all over again
But I didn't notice any noises, the car was a dealership demo and had about 4k on it.


One bloke lost a few gears on the highway and limped to a dealership.

One of the syncho's on one of the gear dislodged itself and started making popcorn inside the box. car had like 10k.
I remember the same thread some bloke was complaining how he found it irritating that his focus would downshift especially on downhills with the cruise control on
"But my Nissan or Mitsubishi never did it"

There was a couple of reports of shuddering/noises between gearchanges and one guy took his focus to ford and they just showed him some print out operating characteristics of the gearbox e.g all the noises it makes, how it acts.

But I asked the sales bloke about that and he said that there was a new flash available but was more done if people mentioned shudders etc...


anyways time for a giggle

[RoknRob]

Aren't the big Toyota recalls the ones that may end your life if not resolved? And if initiated from the USA then they may be safety recalls called on by a Government authority. Remember the unintended acceleration story that swept America a few years ago. At the time it did damage to Toyota's brand in the USA.... and it ended up being driver error or misfitted carpet mats.

There are whispers that Ford Powershift (dry clutch) is suffering from the same problems as the DQ200 box. Shuddering on takeoff, missing gears/false neutrals, weird noises as it changes gears.

I consider an unexpected loss of power - such as a "false neutral" - a potentially life threatening event.

Since the government here is unwilling or unable to oblige car makers to do the right thing, and VW wasn't about to, of it's own volition, well, (I can't believe I'm about to write this) thank goodness for the media, then.

[Transporter]

I don't think it's the medias job to worry about resale values, etc.

I said that the resale values don't come to their mind. It's good to see that we both agree

[Rawcpoppa]

DSG woes in The Age

One of the major issues as I understand it is the dry clutch gearboxes when run in slow moving, stop/start traffic are doing a LOT of clutch slipping and the gearbox reaching temps of 400+ degC. So any electronics that is located close by (i.e. mechatronics) is going to get a good baking from the radiated heat from the hot clutch plates and surrounds. Electronics plus high temperatures = electronic component failures. The way electronics manufacturers work out Mean Time to Fail figures is to run their equipment at elevated temperatures (in an oven) to accelerate the testing/occurrence of failures.

Taller gearing does require more clutch slipping to get the car moving smoothly. Just try taking off in second gear all the time - which is what the DSG box effectively does due to short-shifting first gear. Plus in slow moving traffic the fact that first gear does not re-engage until the vehicle comes to a complete standstill means that the DSG will slip the clutch otherwise you'd stall the engine.

I'd say a lot of the issues with the DQ200 are heat related and can be attributed back to the push for the best in class fuel economy figures. Fuel economy may be great but if you destroy clutches in the process it costs a whole lot more than the 0.1l/100km saving you may achieve from running higher gears, upshifting early and slipping the clutch until the road speed picks up enough to have the clutch fully engaged.

If VW modified the shift pattern of their DSG gearboxes, half their problems would go away overnight.

I think you're right about heat and shift patterns being the main issues for a dey clutch dsg. The juddering I have felt only occurs when the car is in gear 2 and attempting to pull off from low speeds (that I would think gear 1 should be used for) usually under strain like moving uphill or a few occupants in the vehicle. This is only in D mode where the dsg shifts to gear 2 quickly from gear 1 at about 1400-1500 rpm. It feels like trying to accelerate in a manual car in too high a gear (the juddering effect) and I suspect that is exactly what's happening. This doesn't happen in manual mode nor sport as the dq200 won't let you shift out of gear 1 before 1800-2000rpm.

With respect other it should be noted that the juddering I have experienced usually happens after being in city driving i.e stop start driving and lower speeds. The dsg is heating up basically.
The higher the temperature the more the friction coefficient of the clutch changes (luk the maker of the dq200 has stated this) and it is more likely to judder as the clutches slip under strain depending on the gearing.

All of this is from observation, Internet links, te service manager at the VW dealer here and the following is from my user manual for a 2012 Jetta:



The DQ200 needs air flowing past it to cool down. I don't know what sort of traffic you guys encounter in Australia but think about someone who encounters long stop start traffic where they are crawling a lot. DQ200 temps will rise. It may not be passing the threshold for alarm set by vw but it can still be high. Day in day out this can lead to issues I would think seeing that vw saw it fit to put that notice in their manuals. You guys should point this out to the officials when you make your complaints as I think it points to a fundamental design flaw.

Dq250 dsg is less prone to this high level of heating. Why? It contains a lot more oil that can take heat away from the clutches. Similar to how an automatic slush box has a lot of fluid that does the same. It's why you hear fewer complaints from gti owners (or any with the 6 speed wet clutch dsg)

Edit:
The juddering is a separate issue to the false neutrals and mechatronic failures some experience. I have no proof of what causes the mechatronic unit to fail. If I had to guess I would say it might be heat related, hydraulic valves being worn maybe?

I think the DQ200 is a brilliant idea in that by using less gearbox oil for the clutches the efficiency of the 7 speed dsg is higher than even the 6 speed dsg and manual transmissions due to less parasitic power loss from the clutches moving through alot of fluid (oil). With that in mind though inherently dry clutches do heat up faster than wet clutches due to differences in heat capacities and friction which is why the DQ200 is limited to lower torque producing engines in the VAG line up. From an engineering standpoint the fact they can tell me to drive the car fast enough for air to cool the gearbox is a big fail in my opinion. Why? If heat is such an issue VW should have designed a way for the little bit of oil present to be cooled without driver intervention in ALL instances. An oil cooler taking heat away possibly would be a better design. It's not unheard of.

Can owners with both 6 speed wet clutch DSG (DQ250 DSG found in GTI, Golf R etc, 2.0TDI, 2.0 TSI or larger displacement equipped VAG vehicles) and 7 speed dry clutch DSG (DQ200 found in many with 1.4TSI, 1.8TSI, 1.6TDI or smaller displacement equipped VAG vehicles) check their manuals for official VW references to DSG over heating?


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[tigger73]

I think you're right about heat and shift patterns being the main issues for a dey clutch dsg. The juddering I have felt only occurs when the car is in gear 2 and attempting to pull off from low speeds (that I would think gear 1 should be used for) usually under strain like moving uphill or a few occupants in the vehicle. This is only in D mode where the dsg shifts to gear 2 quickly from gear 1 at about 1400-1500 rpm. It feels like trying to accelerate in a manual car in too high a gear (the juddering effect) and I suspect that is exactly what's happening. This doesn't happen in manual mode nor sport as the dq200 won't let you shift out of gear 1 before 1800-2000rpm.

With respect other it should be noted that the juddering I have experienced usually happens after being in city driving i.e stop start driving and lower speeds. The dsg is heating up basically.
The higher the temperature the more the friction coefficient of the clutch changes (luk the maker of the dq200 has stated this) and it is more likely to judder as the clutches slip under strain depending on the gearing.

All of this is from observation, Internet links, te service manager at the VW dealer here and the following is from my user manual for a 2012 Jetta:



The DQ200 needs air flowing past it to cool down. I don't know what sort of traffic you guys encounter in Australia but think about someone who encounters long stop start traffic where they are crawling a lot. DQ200 temps will rise. It may not be passing the threshold for alarm set by vw but it can still be high. Day in day out this can lead to issues I would think seeing that vw saw it fit to put that notice in their manuals. You guys should point this out to the officials when you make your complaints as I think it points to a fundamental design flaw.

Well it seems that VW engineers are well aware of the heating problems of the gearbox given that it's a documented issue written into the user manual.

Now all they need to do is work out how to fix it so they can issue a recall and implement a permanent fix for all the effected cars.

[Rawcpoppa]

I doubt there is an easy fix. If there was they would have done it already. As much as people like to rag on VW, if one looks at their TPI's you see they generally issue fixes for known issues with ALOT less furore than seen with this dsg.

What VW has done is modify the DQ200 in some way. The golf 7, a3, jetta hybrid ALL get new letter designations for the DQ200 dsg. OAM for the first batch from 2008 till present for the vehicles sold as mk5, mk6. Golf 7 and new A3 get OCW and the Jetta hybrid I forgot.

[wai]

Well it seems that VW engineers are well aware of the heating problems of the gearbox given that it's a documented issue written into the user manual.

Now all they need to do is work out how to fix it so they can issue a recall and implement a permanent fix for all the effected cars.

Well, if it is cooling the oil, it is a simple matter of adding an oil cooler attached to the radiator.

The other thing from this is that you DO NOT CRAWL.

[logger]

..
Taller gearing does require more clutch slipping to get the car moving smoothly. Just try taking off in second gear all the time - which is what the DSG box effectively does due to short-shifting first gear. Plus in slow moving traffic the fact that first gear does not re-engage until the vehicle comes to a complete standstill means that the DSG will slip the clutch otherwise you'd stall the engine....
If VW modified the shift pattern of their DSG gearboxes, half their problems would go away overnight.

The two points I was making to correct two assertions were..
1) the taller gearing out side of the start off regime that is implemented for fuel economy has little if any effect on clutch slip or wear. I expect changing this part of the shift program will have no effect on DSG issues.
2) the DSG7 mechatronic unit does not contain hot gearbox oil.

BTW VW have reflashed and modified the shift patterns in my 118TSI several times since I bought it. Maybe that is why I have had no issues.

[Sharkie]

The DSGs have issues, however in regard to

Both wrong ....

1. The 7 Speed gearbox mechatronic unit, which is the most effected of the two main DSGs, contains no gearbox oil. 6 speed does though.
2. That's pure speculation. I could also speculate that adding a second clutch would double the combined clutch life, when clearly it does not. The cars characteristic of running taller gears is by design and does not mean it has a tendency to "ride" the clutch. I have seen no clear evidence off the taller gear regime being the cause of the DSG7 clutch failures.

Well mate, as I said, it was "Explained to me", and by no less than 3 VW mechanics .... 2 independent specialists and 1 from VW itself. As a summary these are the main issues and may apply more in some circumstances to a particular model of DSG box but still relevant.

So, unless you are a qualified VW tech that has evidence and/or experience to the contrary, I'd say my assertions still apply.

[whoalse]

I don't agree that the media is to blame. The root causes came from VWA for sitting on its hands for far too long, hoping these issues would fade away and be a bygone memory.

Like a few of members here note it, I've been getting the usual phrases from dealers and VWA.
- No error was found thru diagnostic
- What happened in US is not relevant to Aus as specifications, configurations differ (eg PRNDS flashing which happened twice within first 3 months)
- VWA stands by its quality products but words mean nothing to us as owners when overseas markets extend the DSG/Mechatronic warranty to 10 years.
- Accelerator pedal kit replacement and throttle-related re-wiring were done on separate occasions. Limp mode and plenty of CEL over 24 months before these were replaced, resulting in lost of confidernce in VW.
- Other faulty parts like lock mechanism, door handle not properly bolted, high pressure valves, cracked dump pipe. Will all these recur and resulting more downtime?

I have also written to DIT to highlight those issues. I may not have experience the false neutral while cruising but I wouldn't want it to happen to me or anyone while on the road. I also do not want to bear the costs of future replacements of DSG and Mechatronic if there are inherent faults.

And having 12 years of driving a manual, I know how to drive one but this edition only comes in DSG. I love the car, don't get me wrong. Just that the attitude and characters of certain groups of individuals running VWA group pisses a lot of us off on one too many occasion.

[logger]

Well mate, as I said, it was "Explained to me", and by no less than 3 VW mechanics .... 2 independent specialists and 1 from VW itself. As a summary these are the main issues and may apply more in some circumstances to a particular model of DSG box but still relevant.

So, unless you are a qualified VW tech that has evidence and/or experience to the contrary, I'd say my assertions still apply.

I am not a qualified VW tech so my contradictory evidence must be incorrect. So assert away. But if you feel like being enlightened, have a read of the VWs Service Training Self Study Program "The 7-speed Double-Clutch Transmission 0AM" (You can Google it). While your at it grab a copy for your techs who seemingly have not heave read it either.

I don't agree that the media is to blame. The root causes came from VWA for sitting on its hands for far too long, hoping these issues would fade away and be a bygone memory.

I tend to agree with you an this Whoalse. Will be very interesting to see what transpires next week.

[Seeallidrive]

I've just been going through DSG woes at the same time as all the media goings-on, which has been interesting (never had any deceleration etc., but just the massive shudders). Had my auto 2009 Golf 118TSI (30,000km and out of warranty) towed a week ago. VW fixed the clutch pack for free under the new five year warranty and I really pushed for the mechatronics unit to be replaced as well, but they said no. Car got towed again on Friday, as had another massive shudder. Can anyone tell me what I should be pushing for them to do? Anything other than the mechatronics unit? Do you think they'll be doing anything else if the recall goes ahead? Any info would be a real help as this isn't exactly my area of expertise (am a journo, so have been having a Twitter/Facebook field day, though...).

[omega31]

DSG woes in The Age

- VWA stands by its quality products but words mean nothing to us as owners when overseas markets extend the DSG/Mechatronic warranty to 10 years.

I agree, even if a recall was made and a so call fix is provided both future DSG return fault expenses and resale value will be on us the loyal customers.

Additional 10 year transferable warranty for the DSG/mechatronic is required to assist in the resale and restore confidence.

I took my skoda 118with 7 DSG gearbox and all they did was delete all old error, did a test drive while resetting DSG configuration and check if the firmware is updated.

At the end I got a printout of an error free car. This does not restore my confidence as I knew I had no issues with my car at current time.

Saying this they did tell me no additional information or recall has been provided by VW at current time.

I guess all we can do is wait and see VW response next week.

[brad]

I said that the resale values don't come to their mind. It's good to see that we both agree

Heaven forbid!