P-plater turbo ban lifted

[JedR32]

I know how stupid these P-plate rules are first hand (I drive an R32 and previously a Subaru Liberty 3.0R Spec. B). Yet I wasn't able to drive a GTI or half the non-performance cars out there because they were turbocharged for fuel efficiency hahahaha
I know in Queensland they now have P-plate exemptions for moderately powered vehicles which are very easy to get and require no reason for the exemption other than the turbocharged car being less than 125Kw/t.
In all honesty though you can kill yourself whether you're doing 60km/h or 200km/h, and all cars can do 60km/h. I'd rather crash in a safe turbocharged Audi or the likes doing 80km/h than in a ****box Hyundai doing 60km/h!

[THE_EGG]

I know how stupid these P-plate rules are first hand (I drive an R32 and previously a Subaru Liberty 3.0R Spec. B). Yet I wasn't able to drive a GTI or half the non-performance cars out there because they were turbocharged for fuel efficiency hahahaha
I know in Queensland they now have P-plate exemptions for moderately powered vehicles which are very easy to get and require no reason for the exemption other than the turbocharged car being less than 125Kw/t.
In all honesty though you can kill yourself whether you're doing 60km/h or 200km/h, and all cars can do 60km/h. I'd rather crash in a safe turbocharged Audi or the likes doing 80km/h than in a ****box Hyundai doing 60km/h!

This made me very sad and angry when the rules changed in QLD for turbo cars so P-platers can drive turbo's under 125kw/tonne. THIS MEANT I COULD HAVE HAD THE DSPORT DS3!!!!!

Anyway, from what I've heard from friends, you still need to go through the exemption process even if your car is under 125kw/tonne. One of my friends had to wait 3 months for their Alfa Romeo MiTo to get approved.

[The_Hawk]

From what I read about QLD the under 125kW/t thing meant that it was *likely* to be approved as an exemption not an automatic free for all.

Devils advocate here, the blanket rule was semi reasonable at the time it started and made it easy to enforce since it was very very clear what was in and what was out. Everything out required a permit. period. You also need to think back to how many petrol turbo cars that would have been exempt were actually on the market at the time.

Special treatment... even the 125kW/t figure was conceived to ensure the Falcadores are within any limits set. Funny that when Ford start talking about going for a smaller turbo engine all of a sudden it's a great idea to tweak the regulations. The whole concept of "special" build plates to show a particular vehicle is under the threshold seems sort of insane. Why have a plate in a vehicle *just* to certify things for P platers? What proportion of the cars on the road belong to them? Sure the plate makes things idiot proof from an enforcement point of view but it seems like using a canon to kill a fly.

If you do the sums it gets very interesting with the Golf GTI and R coming in at 113kW/t and 127kW/t respectively... both under the 130 limit. If they move to a PMR it's going to be interesting to see how they manage to allow the Falcadores AND reject the GTI/R...

[Mk3 AAA]

I don't mind the kW/t idea, on my P's (pre-restrictions, and even needing a P plate) I had a 4.0L Falcon, and a VR6... both under125kW/t and neither a slouch by anything short of a 'performance' standard. Media over-hypes the situation sure but IMO you do need to be eased into driving to some degree, I can speak from experience that most of my mates have settled down on the roads a lot in that time, and it's gone from encouraging doing silly things to it being a faux pas to be a twit on the roads. We are and were a sensible bunch most of the time and even then silly risks were taken... it's just life, you grow out of risks you took as a youth and there should be a few guidelines in that time (without going nuts), when I was 16 I was convinced I was plenty old enough to be drinking, you just need some patience and you can wait a couple of years for that turbo. The young people I've known killed in vehicle accidents have had something powerful under their control... events that may just have played out differently and been somehow less serious had their cars/boat not gone up to 11. If Ayrton Senna, Peter Brock, and Possum Bourne can come unstuck in a car I certainly don't doubt a spotty faced kid flogging his dads car can too possibly taking whoever else around with him. Flawed analogy but something easily forgotten in those first few years. But hey..... that's not to say that P Platers are even the majority of the problem on the roads.

[Stiggy_21]

Wasnt there some statistic saying that more elderly people have crashes than p-platers???

I still reckon as a p-plater, it should be compulsory to do driving courses to learn how to control a car under extreme conditions... Many ex-racers have emphasized this, and you would think the government would respond. Instead they restrict what cars you car drive:S
I know plenty of people that think they can control a car, next thing I find out they wrapped it into a pole.
As stated previously, doesn't matter how powerfull a car is, anyone including race drivers can have a crash.
In a way having a more powerfull car is better, they have better brakes and it gives you that little bit extra to overtake a car etc.
Yes you get the odd d-head that thinks theyre top-s***, and decides to wrapped it around a pole. But thats still goin to happen in any car, whether it be a Ferrari 458 or a Hyundai excel.... It's not the cars fault, just a f***wit driver.

Anyway comes back to me saying drivers need more experience with car controll!!!
The learner and p-plater system is terrible.

BTW I'm a red p-plater

[JedR32]

I agree, if you're driving like an idiot (not saying I haven't ever), then there is a large chance you're gonna end up looking like an idiot. Defensive driving courses should be a COMPULSORY part of getting your licence. And then P-plate restrictions should be reduced considerably as many "high-powered" vehicles are a lot safer than many run of the mill cars. On another note power can definitely be a safety feature at a point. Too much can be dangerous and too little can be dangerous, but learning how to unleash the right amount of power and properly control a vehicle is a lot more important than the peak power that the vehicle has.

Just my opinion on the matter.
I am also a P-plater, and I have been in an at fault crash unfortunately (wasn't driving recklessly, but in hindsight I should have been going even slower than I was).
However my friend had a much worse crash (not doing anything beyond the law or being stupid) and ended up in a lot worse shape, DESPITE him driving a car with a lot less power.
Just goes to show that individual circumstance and safety features of a car play a lot more of a role than peak power.

Cheers,
Jed

[Mk3 AAA]

I know you don't mean it like that, but no one sets out to wrap a car around a tree, those silly things you did that one time may have seen you come unstuck and been one of those ****heads, you're better off testing out your skills in something less powerful. I don't want to sound like a kill joy here, I'm only a few years out of my Ps, but I think the truth is that a more powerful car is going to get you into more trouble more quickly, and the majority of these cars are based on existing mainstream platforms of a similar safety standard. Outside that I'm against these sorts of restrictions.

[THE_EGG]

The defensive driving courses are definately a +1 from me. I have done two of them and have been to a couple of the happy laps sessions that are organised by the people on this forum. I found that these in combination have the best learning experience as the defensive driving courses taught me basic but also essential things when I was on my L's and then the happy laps provided an area where I could drive MY CAR more spritually and faster to understand the dynamics of the car and thus would understand how the car would behave in a dangerous scenario. I personally think the 125kw/tonne would be best or maybe even a 110kw/tonne rule, and just have all cars that coincide with those rules legal for P-platers to drive. Example here is my 1.6N/A DS3 has ~87kw/tonne (88kw total stock), and my dad's Range Rover SDV6 has ~73kw/tonne (with the twin-turbo 3.0LV6 diesel - 190kw total stock). However at the moment, most department of transport/queensland government would view the RR as the more powerful vehicle which without a shadow of a doubt it is, however relatively when comparing weight-the DS3 is more powerful. Food for thought for those guys.

But I do think the most stupid thing is that I could go and buy a second hand Porsche Boxster and drive it on my P's but I can't go and buy a Polo TSI....This is why I want the kw/tonne rule enforced rather than rules based on engines.

[Stiggy_21]

agreed!!
Restrictions should still be in place to limit the chance of p-platers getting into trouble.
Someone I know (p-plater) who has a xr6, has wacked it into a pole and a tree on two different occasions... You think he would have learnt his lesson by now!!

I have been caught off guard in my 16v several times. Now it's not the most powerful car by anymeans, but I have a very basic understanding of how much trouble I could get in with her. I don't hoon to impress mates, just try to learn her limits when im by myself and there are no apparent dangers
I sure as hell don't want to be "that guy", so I figure testing her out will make me more aware of her limits in the future.
So hopefully the inevitable day does not come.

Blah blah blah

[HaydEn]

The power difference between a vr6 and a excel is evident by any means.

I have stupidly taken my dads 300awkw Evo 7's and sti's out on the roads. And despite that damn turbo kick, I have honestly felt safer in those then my nans excel and pops Tickford falcon. I am on my p's and am not trying to say I'm a race car driver. But I have done a couple driver training and track days. In rwd and awd cars and they certainly do improve, your response, and control to that kick.

Unfortunately, a turbo car has to many possibilities. I.e. bigger turbo, tunes, exhausts etc. there is so much more power to come from a turbo with simple mods then a n/a with simple mods.

In the end. It is the lower income families that think a falcondore is sick fast. That then step into a real power car and get into trouble.

[Mk3 AAA]

In the end. It is the lower income families that think a falcondore is sick fast. That then step into a real power car and get into trouble.

I don't really believe that, I know a decent range of people demographically and would say there's very little correlation between wealth and being a twit on the road. Rich kids may well just be used to getting their own way more and not respect the consequences as much.... IDK. The local cars (especially the older ones) are handfuls in the wet and have average dynamics... they might not be such a bad starting point for an in the deep end approach to driving.

The thing with driver safety courses is that some people ('some') come back thinking they're top **** and drive even more aggressively than before because they believe they have the skills to. I remember a mate flogging his car for weeks after because he thought he was a racer, he luckily didn't come unstuck but he possibly wouldn't have driven like that in the first place. That's an OP 2 student in a BMW his dad bought him... so education and wealth can only take you so far.

Infrastructure and the better management of distances is what I believe will have a huge impact on safety, so many roads here in Bris' are riddled with potholes, have poor markings, and do unpredictable things (sometimes you exit a road onto another and it has the same name as the one you were on, and these sorts of things can flip people and GPS units out) coupled with people travelling too close, being discourteous and not considering large vehicles, older vehicles, and others that might need more space/time.

So driver attitude needs work too, not merely the ability to control the car, but a positive influence on how you chose to control it. DON'T SPEED, DON'T DRINK, are about the only messages we get and there are plenty more that need the stage.

We just have the issue that no one wants to change their attitude or put money in (or know what to fund).
When a mate died on the road (in a performance car, with driver training and track experience) and almost took another with him I made a conscious decision to settle down while driving, relax, pay attention, and give others leeway (either out of courtesy or fear of them doing something stupid).

Bit off topic there sorry..... /rant.

[Ryan_R]

Great to hear. Shame we had to wait for an Aussie brand to make an eco car before this happened.

I hope current cars aren't detuned for Australians just to fall into this bracket (or maybe it could be made optional so that older drivers have the normal amount). Then again, what's to stop a P-Plater buying a 118TSI and then visiting APR (although it's still heaps safer than those old Falcodores that you're always seeing on Aus/NZ Highway Patrol TV shows). At least the Mk6 6 has very good brakes and plenty of other safety equipment, and probably much better tyre grip as well.

[The_Hawk]

Like I said earlier, the 125/130 kW/t figure ensures that the Falcadores are within limits. A blanket rule of PMR has issues as does the whole no [petrol] forced induction rule.
100kW/t would see *most* small turbo cars slide in without issue, however then there is the media stories about about why the higher power falcadores are allowed where smaller lower powered vehicles are not? Again assuming the new 4 banger turbo Falcon has similar power output as the current six pot it needs the higher limit.

The reality is that no blanket rule is ever going to be perfect and even if there is a governing body picking and choosing what is allowed and what is not there will always be complaints both for and against half the decisions.

[Ideo]

Yes, it sickens me too. Who cares about the lives? Money, profit and CEO's come first. Now the P platers can wack that performance tune on and show how silly the system is and the people that are behind it.

Yeah. Ummm. That is complete bull.

Look at the cars that are wrapped around telegraph poles. Old Commodores and Falcons. Cheap tyres. Poor suspension. V6. RWD.

I hardly think a kid in a Saab 9-3 with a low pressure turbo is going to get fully hektik sick understeer to the same degree.

You know how easy it is to crash a car with a tune? Just as easy as a car without a tune.

[Njay]

This has dragged on a fair bit...... Regardless of how powerful the car is it comes down to common sense of the driver. My car is fairly modded and probably quicker than most p plater cars but I've also change suspension braking to help with the increase of power. There are idiots who just idiots who just mod the engine and when they try to go around turns :thumbdown:
I don't go hooning around city that's just stupid with the number of cops around. I got a ticket the other day overtaking a truck which was kicking gravel on my car the other day in a slow Nissan.
There is so much the government can enforce the law and for those people who say they rather be driving wrx rather than excel, well if you can afford a wrx you definitely can afford some better than an excel, so stop comparing the two