T4 Needs New Clutch....Reccomendations!

[Sunny43.5]

No problem jets , it would be an interesting read . I did some research last night and the positives seem to be smoother gear changes as the DMF will absorb the shock from the clutch release and also absorb the load from the engine , apparently car makers now build with the DMF as an integral part of the drive train so they obviously see an advantage in a smooth drive . Like I said I don't believe they are necessary in a petrol engine but I have to accept like some other technology DMF DSG DPF EGR there is not much we can do about it . I'll go back to my time machine and hope I can avoid the future Ha Ha .

[02mick]

That link was a bitt more of an insepide sunny43.5, thanks for that.
i do see the benefit but i cant help bit that the faillure rate of the dmf in t4 are a bit high, to high for my liking.
jets, im dead keen to read up about what luk hs to say and will go from there (;

Also i imagani that the dmf of today might be an improvement over the the one fitted in 99 or would they still be the same design ?
thanks everyone

[Sunny43.5]

I think the reason the 2.0 litre petrol engines have the DMF is because VW dropped the 2.5 5 pot and the 4 pot would have problems pulling away with the heavy weight of the van fully loaded so they needed a way of getting the smooth transition from stop to go . Problem is that I personally believe the 4 pot was way too underpowered for a van of the T5 weight . I have found several times over the last ten years where the 4 pot was hard pressed to pull its fat arse up some steep driveways . One particular one in the hinterland of the Gold Coast took me about five attempts to get the van back onto the road !! I tried reversing failed miserably and then I tried forwards took many attempts but the final method was to back the van into the owners garden bed of flowers lots of throttle and make a running go at it front wheels scrabbling for grip in the dirt and then when it hit the concrete lots of smoking clutch and then only just made it out . In my mind it was a VW failure because if the van was loaded with the allowable weight it would still be there today !! I would hate to think how much the springs inside the DMF were compressed with those attempts , not saying that a solid one would have done it any better but at least the springs would not have been damaged .

[jets]

After much searching I found the article in The Automotive Engineer, Oct.'11. I said previously in the thread that manufacturers started using the DMF in the mid nineties. It was in fact 1985, that's nearly thirty years ago. The article states [Oct '11] that a total of 5 million flywheels are supplied to manufacturers & aftermarket every year.
Function of the LuK DMF.
"Physical study of drive trains has revealed that the resonance speed range can be shifted by changing the allocation of angular moments.
As the transmission angular momentum increases, the resonance speed, which generates loud noise, drops below the idle speed & thus falls outside the engine's rev. range.
Using the DMF, LuK was able to develop a large-scale product that embodies this principle & thereby keeps resonance amplitude extremely low."
The article shows a cutaway of the DMF.
"As shown in the function diagram, using the DMF the angular moment is decreased in front of the torsion damper & increased behind it. The angular moment of the engine is now assigned to the primary mass of the DMF, while that of the transmission is assigned to the secondary mass including the clutch drive plate & the clutch pressure plate. In this way, the resonance speed is shifted from approx. 1300 rpm to about 300 rpm & can no longer interfere with driving comfort, as the engine is not operated in this speed range.
An added positive effect is provided by the reduced angular momentum on the engine side. Gear changing is improved thanks to the lower mass to be synchronised, & the synchromesh units are subject to less wear.
With previous conventional flywheels & torsion-damped clutch plates, the torsional vibrations in the idle speed range were transmitted to the transmission with the least possible filtering, causing the teeth of the transmission gears to strike against one another [transmission rattle]. The use of a DMF however, filters out the torsional vibrations of the engine by the complex construction of the torsion damper, preventing vibration from affecting the transmission components-rattling does not occur & driver comfort is fully ensured."

I know personally of this happening to a neighbour. His Nissan ute was at the dealers having a second clutch replaced at around from memory around 80,000km. He asked about having a SMF installed because it was cheaper. He was told that they wouldn't warrant the job because he would get gearbox noises. He thought they were trying to rip him off & chose to go ahead with the SMF. Straight away he had gearbox rattle at idle. He had had a no. of issues with the vehicle & decided to sell it & didn't want to sell privately because of the noise. He finished up trading it on a new Isuzu ute at a very low trade in figure.
Back to the article.
"The advantages of the LuK duel-mass flywheel at a glance
first-class driving comfort
absorption of vibrations
noise insulation
fuel saving due to lower engine speeds
increased gear changing comfort
less synchronisation wear
overload protection for the drive train"
There was much more in the article on failure diagnosis etc. but what I have typed is the general guts of the article.

[02mick]

right, (-: i bit the bullet yesterday and ordered a dmf clutch kit,
my reasoning, for every bad conversion story i can find a good so that didn't help me one way or another, initial price is not that much difference. i think the current clutch is the first one, well i hope, i ordered a luk unit and if that last for another 200.000 than ill be happy (-:
there is very little proper documented about these clutches and made me go the safe way although i doubt that it would harm gearboxes and or crancks..
my manual is still finding its way to me by aus post but can someone tell me if i need any special tools for this job ?does a t4 2.5 tdi acv run those special headed bolts on the flywheel ?
thanks again, mick

[Sunny43.5]

When I changed my clutch kit in my T5 2005 model I was able to do the job with just the tools I had at home I may have bought the odd allen key or spline bit from Repco on the day . But nothing out of the ordinary .

[LogicprObe]

When I changed my clutch kit in my T5 2005 model I was able to do the job with just the tools I had at home I may have bought the odd allen key or spline bit from Repco on the day . But nothing out of the ordinary .

How heavy is the box?
One man handle it OK under the car?

[Sunny43.5]

Ha ha how old are you and how strong , the mongrel IS heavy but I had a mate help me for that bit , I was on my back and had the box on my chest then sort of wrestled it into position . Once we got it lined up with spline it just slid into position and we just put a jack under it to hold it while the rest of the bolts were fitted . The pig part is you need to get the van up high enough to lower it and clear the bottom of the van subframe , you also need to unbolt the steering rack from memory to get the box out . Someone may have more info as my memory of the swearing etc has faded .

[LogicprObe]

Hmmmmm.........thinking about getting VW to do it..........but it sounds expensive!

[Sunny43.5]

As unskilled home mechanics , wait these days they are known as technicians . Any way when I did the job it would have totalled 8 hours , but remember a dealer will have ALL the correct tools and the correct hoists and gearbox stands . The dealers would probably charge at least 8 hours plus to do the job so be prepared . They will not give away the chance to make a job like yours a nice juicy earner for the business so they will milk it , I would try and find an independent mechanic to do the job because as I said almost any unskilled weekender mechanic can do the job .

[LogicprObe]

Yeah...........I know what they're like.
On my old T4, something went wrong with the gearbox/diff under warranty.......it was making a ticking noise.
Anyway, they had to replace the box and it was a six week wait for one to arrive from Germany.
After it arrived, I got a call saying the clutch was worn past the half way point, did I want to replace it?
(I think he quoted about $1500) so I went down to the workshop and had a look.........heaps of meat left on it!

Put it back in, I said!
That was around 80k.......................I finally replaced it at 380k............only because the thrust bearing went bang!
(the kit was under $400 by memory)

[Sunny43.5]

Ha thrust bearing was the reason I did my clutch kit as well , screaming its arse off for a couple of days until I replaced it .

[LogicprObe]

Ha thrust bearing was the reason I did my clutch kit as well , screaming its arse off for a couple of days until I replaced it .

Yeah..........the T4 crapped itself right outside Petersham Town Hall in peak hour!
I was very popular with the other motorists.

My T5 makes a noise now and then like a dry bearing spinning.........only when I push the clutch in.......so it must be it.
Only 280k on this one though.

[Sunny43.5]

When you see the throw out bearing for your T5 you would be amazed how cheap and flimsy it is , for all the work it has to do I would have thought it would be more substantial .

[LogicprObe]

That's the thing..........I can get bearings for bugger all but you have to pull the whole thing out anyway!
I think their clutches are good and the weak link is the bearing.
Driving around Sydney.......you're always on the clutch.

So, I priced a thrust from VW..........$275.........whole kit.........$650!