Sam's build thread

[sambb]

Hi Andrew. Yeah sadly the back pressure is good arguement still has traction in the turbo world for some reason. Only reason I wont go 3.5'' on the next turbo is that it will likely melt things!
Nearly ready yeah - my 205 mediums are coming off the rims for the softs to go on as we speak ( thats for the rears). Tonight at work (dinner break of course) I'm going to check the front toe and thats about it. Other than remembering to take your harness with e and a bottle of oil I'm good to go. Looks like it'll be dry too.

edit: all these IC pipes , wastegates, dumps, intercoolers …. think I'd prefer a K24 and go all naturally aspirated like you

[Sydneykid]

One day there will be a hillclimb round on when I don't have to be at another race track somewhere, of course we are testing at Wakefield on Sunday.

Cheers
Gary

[metalhead]

Sam, N/A is its own world of stuff to get right if you actually want to make power out of a smallish engine! I always thought boost was the easier way myself...

[sambb]

ha ha yeh I probably will have to lock the wastegate shut on sunday to keep up with you Mr 'I have a sticker set of Yoko softs'!

[sambb]

Ok so I have been looking into something that I think will make me rest easier in making the decision to go to a large port (if it comes to that). I was doing a bit of digging into how the VCT works on our Polo. I've had a bit of a jumpy idle and thought that perhaps the VCT wasnt getting the inlet cam to its setpoints quick enough.
So I found that to test the VCT in our car you'll need a thoroughly cracked copy of VCDS. At idle, you go into the engine ECU, measuring block 094 and then hit 'go' to display the details eg rpm/cam control on/test on.
You then find the tab in the bottom of that screen that says ' switch to basic settings'. When you hit that the same field you were looking at in 'measuring blocks' will be there and the car still idling as it was. But you'll notice that if you depress the accelerator pedal nothing happens - its in a pending test mode. You then hold your foot on the brake and floor the accelerator simultaneously and the test initiates. The car will slowly bring its own revs up to about 2400rpm and you'll notice that the field that says 'test' will have switched to say 'in progress' or something to that effect. The test field will then change to say the test is complete - it may have changed to 'passed' but I cant remember. You then have to close the engine controller to get out of there.
There is an output test where you can individually test the VCT solenoid with the car not running but I didn't seem to have that capability on my vcds copy. I assume doing it from basic settings with the car running will actually be comparing the crank and cam trigger to see that it has actually moved the cam rather than just an actuator being triggered.

So in these researches, I stumbled across some threads where it was put to the forum peoples that the same VCT version 1.8T 20V's that occupy Audi engine bays as VW's, have the same part number VCT chain actuator but run it differently. What got my interest is that like the VW's the Audi's use VCT to advance the inlet cam for overlap at cold start but where ours is never used again and remains in its 'zero' position for the rest of running, the Audis switch it on again at 2400 till about 4800rpm before it goes off again. ie in a third gear pull during spool up and the torque hump they will have the inlet cam advanced 10 degrees from the 'zero' point and it will then retard again for the top end. The thread was looking at using MSD window switches etc to trigger the VW solenoids, using maestro tunes that copy the audi system and nefmoto guys for sure will be able to do it. Basically it caused spool to come on earlier and gave measurably more torque in back to back dynos.

So I logged my car at cold start to confirm. In block 094 the field 'cam control on' always says that. It must just mean that you have that capability as it doesn't change. But in block 091 the field changes to "ON" and the field called ide sabilisation (called kW degrees in other versions of vcds) will change to 20CF meaning the inet cam has moved 20 crank degrees positively.
Then once the elevated revs part of the cold start ceases, the fields change to "OFF" and the crank angle goes back to -2.0 or 0 CF showing that it has retarded back again. I logged my car the other night on a third gear pull and it stays in that zero position ever after.
The VCT audi's do this though. warm idle its at zero, boot it it'll advance the intake and then switch back to zero for the upper rev range.
So in our car like the audi VCT is used at cold start for emissions. But unlike ours the Audis also use it as a performance auxillary. Same physical one step on/off cam control just switched at key moments to aid spool/torque etc. I'm going to get in contact with the guy that did my tune and see if nefmoto can massage the ME7 files to get this capability.

some of the threads : https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5116947-Who-is-using-VVT-to-make-power/page8
https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5116947-Who-is-using-VVT-to-make-power/page10

edit: can confirm that the VCT is ONLY active on cold start up. I've done numerous runs, third gear pulls and the cam sits at 0 degrees the while time. And its only on cold starts. If you shut the car off warm and start it the cam does not advance. Only on cold starts. I don't know what its thresholds are.... I assume it looks at water temp possibly with radiator temp to decide what becomes a 'cold' start. But this sytsem does not use VCT actively like the Audi logs I've seen.

[sambb]

shows the inlet cams phase shift relative to crank pulse
boost with inlet advanced vs retarded (some confusion there - should read advanced vs zero/retarded)
advanced inlet versus retarded/zero position inlet. You can see the cross over point which correalates with where Audi set the inlet advance to turn off and go to zero position in those logs above ie 4600rpm

edit: if these inlet cam switch points can be manipulated plus I've also got the ability with the cat cams adjustable pulley to move inlet and exhaust cams together, then hopefully I could find some little advantages in there.

[Sydneykid]

Yep, the advanced inlet cam timing for cold start is simply an emissions measure. With the hot run advanced inlet cam timing, there is a trick in the thinking. By retarding (ie; not advancing) the inlet cam timing it increases the boost by reducing the cam overlap (ie; the exhaust valves are more closed when the inlet valves open). With Skylines (that use the same system) it actually doesn't increase the power output noticeably at full throttle over 3,000 rpm ie; what it gains in boost it looses in horsepower with reduced valve overlap. However at partial throttle openings and/or lower rpm there is a measurable, albeit small, difference.

Don't know whether it applies the VW's, but on Skylines the inlet cam profiles are different between the VVT and non VVT versions. As a result comparing the on and off timing movement with VVT cams gives a better result than comparing the on and off timing movement with non VVT cams. There is more gain in the former as the VVT cams are designed to be switched whilst the non VVT cams aren't.

How did you go up the hill? We had a decent result, found 0.75 seconds playing at Wakefield yesterday. Just need another 0.4 seconds to get to down to the lap record.

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

I'll look into the part numbers of VVT and non-VVT inlet cams and make sure they are the same. Which car holds the Wakefield IPRA lap record? Is that a race lap record or a qualy time?

Yesterday was a blood bath. Andrew in his Corvette absolutely slayed the rest of the class. It was the first time that a state event there had been run as a two lap format. I'll get a vid up once I get a bit of time but it introduces a long down hill left hander that feeds you back into the bottom of the course and gives you a second run through most of the course. Andrew had been bloody quick up at Tamworth on his sticker Yoko softs and he's super strong at Ringwood so I was pretty sure 2nd was the best I could hope for. First runs proved that with him going 8/10th quicker just in the first 20m of the launch area. He said he was able to grab so much throttle and the thing was just driving off the corners rather than stepping out on him that it actually felt foreign to him. I had the opposite problem - I just couldnt get the front 215 mediums to turn on and was just waiting waiting on the throttle coming out of the tight ones before I could bury it which was really frustrating. The middle split where the track opened up I was fast but it was coming out of the tight corners I was just loosing time because I couldnt get the power down. So I ended up just maning up on the fast bit and going deeper under brakes wherever I could to find some time. I actually went 4/10th quicker on my last run (going faster on my last run is a nice new trend for me) to lock in second place. We were all squabbling over tenths but Andrew was in another dimension several seconds up the road. So while medium fronts worked ok at the faster stuff (and in hotter weather) at places like Bathurst and Huntley, it was a bit of a kill joy at Ringwood. But all up I'm happy that I'd sussed out what to do by the last run and was able to do it, but now I'm on the hunt for some 205/50/15 softs. I'm going to start hassling Levens for second hand ones again.

Huntley is the next state round. I probably wasnt going to do that as it was properly rough and sketchy last year which probably played some part in that massive crash I'd talked about a while back and I was going to try to do the Australian hillclimb titles at Mountain Straight instead. But apparently Huntley has been resurfaced and top return road has been tared too so I'll probably look at doing that too. That'd be a good'n for your skyline.

[metalhead]

You did well yesterday Sam. I dunno why my car likes that layout so much, but even in May on the Nankangs I ran a 75.36 on that layout. Good for me, but I honestly do prefer the closer competition we normally have in class! 11th outright (and 4th fastest tintop) at a state round has kind of blown my mind... Did you work out your A2 equivalent time? Regardless of the layout my car was definitely flying yesterday - my A2 equivalent (removing the second last split) was 41.08. Last year we were all running in the 43's, and Liam holds the record with a 42.70...

[Sydneykid]

I'll look into the part numbers of VVT and non-VVT inlet cams and make sure they are the same. Which car holds the Wakefield IPRA lap record? Is that a race lap record or a qualy time?

Yesterday was a blood bath. Andrew in his Corvette absolutely slayed the rest of the class. It was the first time that a state event there had been run as a two lap format. I'll get a vid up once I get a bit of time but it introduces a long down hill left hander that feeds you back into the bottom of the course and gives you a second run through most of the course. Andrew had been bloody quick up at Tamworth on his sticker Yoko softs and he's super strong at Ringwood so I was pretty sure 2nd was the best I could hope for. First runs proved that with him going 8/10th quicker just in the first 20m of the launch area. He said he was able to grab so much throttle and the thing was just driving off the corners rather than stepping out on him that it actually felt foreign to him. I had the opposite problem - I just couldnt get the front 215 mediums to turn on and was just waiting waiting on the throttle coming out of the tight ones before I could bury it which was really frustrating. The middle split where the track opened up I was fast but it was coming out of the tight corners I was just loosing time because I couldnt get the power down. So I ended up just maning up on the fast bit and going deeper under brakes wherever I could to find some time. I actually went 4/10th quicker on my last run (going faster on my last run is a nice new trend for me) to lock in second place. We were all squabbling over tenths but Andrew was in another dimension several seconds up the road. So while medium fronts worked ok at the faster stuff (and in hotter weather) at places like Bathurst and Huntley, it was a bit of a kill joy at Ringwood. But all up I'm happy that I'd sussed out what to do by the last run and was able to do it, but now I'm on the hunt for some 205/50/15 softs. I'm going to start hassling Levens for second hand ones again.

Huntley is the next state round. I probably wasnt going to do that as it was properly rough and sketchy last year which probably played some part in that massive crash I'd talked about a while back and I was going to try to do the Australian hillclimb titles at Mountain Straight instead. But apparently Huntley has been resurfaced and top return road has been tared too so I'll probably look at doing that too. That'd be a good'n for your skyline.

Jordan holds it in the Civic, we only record race lap time records (not qualy), we were running race simulations, 10 to 15 laps, so it's a fair comparison.

I haven't been to Huntley for decades, it was great in the small cars, won a few class trophies. Would be scary in the Skyline, plus I still have a few things on the to do list. I won't be doing any officiating after the last State round in October this year, so that'll free up some time. Next year I'm only doing the 6 Hour over Easter weekend, so I'll have time (and the all important browny points) to finish the last few things and maybe give it a few runs.

Cheers
Gary

[sambb]

never thought about A2 equivalent Andrew. You add the second laps split time over the line to the first lap yeah? You shouldn' add lap 2 to lap 1 start splits though because of warm tyre running and having gotten a second look at all the corners. I reckon at 3.6's off the line you'd be way quicker than the Liams GTS from the get go. Anyway your sticky softs will be on the belts in a couple of rounds and you'll come back to the pack haha you looked bit horrified at how much they'd already worn.

[metalhead]

Yeh, subtract the second last split (as that's your second lap) - and yeh, not directly the same considering hotter tyres, but still a very close idea. So split one plus split two plus final split is the same track as A2.

And yeh, you're not wrong on the tyres/wear. Horrifying! They've almost as much wear on them as my Nankangs that have done at least a dozen hillclimbs and 27 laps at Wakefield!

[sambb]

Even my mediums copped a hiding. You attack those first few corners so hard but on only 28psi which just kills the front sidewalls. Ill work out the A2 time then. Last time I was there I was on 195/55 softs all round, this time 215/50 front medium: 195/55 soft rear. If I was quicker with the front softs last year I'll be kicking myself.

edit: ok the only way I could work out to do it was look at my theoreticals and deduct the second last split that gave me a 43.04. Is that how you did it? I did a 43.05 in 2017 (the year Geoff beat me to first by 4/100ths - could have cried - think I may have) and cant find last years times in the tracking thread cos it hasn't been updated on the main page. I think I remember last year was slippery as anything and I didn't get out of the 43's then either. Parked in the 43's forever it seems. Nitrous bottle next year. But a few of us beat Geoff by a fair margin in his imp prod thing this year so go figure.

[metalhead]

Ah right, I've got a spreadsheet that I track all my times in, I enter the splits and it calculates the time for each section for each run. But yeh, you could use the theoretical as you describe, just that it would be your best theoretical time which may or may not be from a single run.

Yes, last year (2018 ) was slippery, and the year before (2017) the track was amazing, many records set, including Liams in our class.

Last years results:

[metalhead]

2017: