street legal harness

[sambb]

what do you reckon - street legal here in Oz? in NSW?? I've been looking into a harness that I could fit just for events. I was going to speak to an engineer about using a weld in rear shock tower brace as the connection point for a removable harness but then found this.

thoughts?

https://www.schrothracing.com/products/quickfit#3317

[rgvlee]

I've asked about these on here before and there was some general discontent about using harnesses with stock seats, no hans etc etc
I took that on board but still made enquiries
I contacted a local supplier and apparently schroth wouldn't supply the quick fit to Australia. I'd have to get it from the states direct.
They were also complaining about the fact it's for a 9n and didn't want me to use it on a 9n3 (even though I guarantee there will be no change that will affect the use of this harness).
If you are interested in getting one, and have to get one from the US let me know as I'm still keen on one.

I would doubt they would be street legal, it'd be the same as not wearing a seat belt.

[seangti]

My info is the same as Lee provided. Can't run in 9n3 seats. I see a few guys are timeattack running this set up though.

If/when I go next step with my car, I'll be exploring the welded bar across the back to mount a harness, but will go bucket seat and hans. Beyond caging the rear, I see this as the only safe "compromise" in order to run a harness. I'd certainly never run a harness without a hans. Safer to keep the lap sash belt.

I currently run a CG Lock on the standard belt, they work very well too if you want to be held. They're cheap and money really well spent.

[rgvlee]

I have a cq and while it is better than nothing it falls a long way short of the stability of a harness

[seangti]

I have a cq and while it is better than nothing it falls a long way short of the stability of a harness

$80 vs $5000+ for cage, seat, harness, HANs. For its simplicity it does a good job. Doesn't replace the effectiveness of harness.

[sambb]

yeah I'm running something similar to a cq as well at the moment. It gives my hips a bit more anchoring but I still wince when I think what a good impact would feel like. I guess I should clarify - I wouldn't be running it on the street, only at hillclimbs, but if I'm to compete in the road registered class then the belt would need to be street legal/registerable. The only thing I can think that would make the belt ok for a 9N vs a 9N3 gti would be the 2 door issue. The 2 door cars have the lower anchor point looped over and sliding on the anchored bar. Maybe because its attaches differently they won't accredit it, but I can't see why you couldn't just still attach to the rails' front anchor point. In saying that I haven't had a good look at that though.
I was going to see about getting my car engineered as a two seater. There's a toss bag in my class at the hillclimbs who keeps threatening me with protests because I run with the rear seats out so that will cover him off, but then I was hoping that would open me up to being able to run a 3 or 4 point harness legally and anchored to a strut bar or even a single anchor point at the back of the boot floor, whichever has the straps the most level with the top of the seat back.
My shoulders are lower than the top of the seat back so I should be ok there. You're kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't like you said. Harness + no HANS and you might be ok in a roll over without a cage, but you can split your spinal chorde in a forward impact. That actually happened to a guy who did hillclimbs on a track I race on which makes it pretty worrisome. But then harness + HANS and you'll crush if the roof comes in on you. Don't know what to do really - the former with one of those karting neck cushions maybe? I definitely want a harness - I'm starting to feel very vulnerable in the standard belt.
I've emailed the schroth distributor about quick fits and ralleyes so I'll see what he comes back with. I'll speak to an engineer soon too and maybe get some ideas there.

[sambb]

Yeah I'm with you on that Sean. With the $$$$ a cage is just never going to happen.

[rgvlee]

$80 vs $5000+ for cage, seat, harness, HANs. For its simplicity it does a good job. Doesn't replace the effectiveness of harness.

You're talking about perfect world stuff.
You don't need all of that to run one of these quick fits.
You don't need a full or half cage to run a harness. You only need a support, I've seen setups where the bar is bolted to the top seat belt anchor
Plenty of people don't run HANS.
You don't need a fixed back seat.

The more you have the better off you are but it doesn't have to be an all or nothing approach to minimising risk.

[sambb]

Looking at this link that is the installation guide for quick fits and ralleyes, if you go to page 6 of 12 it actually shows you how to attach to the front anchor of the slidey belt rail thing and makes special mention of vw/audi. Based on that I don't think the 9N vs 9N3 issue would be about that. They musn't rate the coupe style seat hinge in the gti as making for a strong enough seat for quick fit installation.
All we really need is the ralleye 3 (the single tailstrap one) going to a boot mounted anchor, but with can't it bloody well come with the normal seat belt tongue that the quick fit has so that its easily removable.

https://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Rallye_3_&_4_Instructions.pdf

[sambb]

I spoke to my mechanic about engineering. I'd hoped that if I got the car engineered as a two seater so that I could run a strut bar tethered harness, that I could then still run it on the street as a four seater with kids seats etc. Turns out you can't have it both ways - its only legal how its engineered, so it can only be run one way or the other. That's rules out a strut bar tethered harness for me if I want to run in the road registered class then.
The only other option short of running a scroth quick fit would be if a harness could be tethered to the pick up points on the back of the rear seat back. This is where kids seats strap down to so they are obviously rated points. My mech thought that might be doable and that it would probably explain why the seat backs are so insanely heavy ie they are fully structural in the up position. So i'll look into that then...

[Stuwey]

Child Anchor points are rated to 384kg, whilst seatbelt mounts have to be 1550kg.

Think again, sorry!

[sambb]

yep just found that out myself - knew it was a long shot.

[sambb]

I spoke to a proper compliance engineer (NSW) today about seats/harnesses and two seater engineering, so for anyone who's interested here is what he said:

From the harness point of view he said he would go 5 point minimum or just stick to the lap sash belt, even for competition. He said there is just too much evidence that 4 point harnesses promote submarining which can cause abdominal injuries that you won't get with lap sash 3 pointers. I asked him about the Schroth 4 point harnesses that have been talked about above which plug/bolt to the rear seat anchor points and their claim that having one shoulder strap stretch at a rate different to the other prevents submarining. He said that a company like Schroth couldn't/wouldn't make that claim unless it was true to some extent but that he would still rather crash in a lap sash than a commonly available 4 point harness, and he was dead against the use of rear seat belt anchors because the angle could break the seat and/or cause spinal compression. He said he would never pass a 5 or 6 point harness anchored that way so to suggest that a 4 pointer anchored that way would be safe is a bit dodgy to him. So long and short he recommends 5 or 6 point harnesses (they must be ADR approved if you will have them installed in a street car) if you are going to bother and they have to be anchored to a dedicated mount with the car engineered as a two seater.

As far as seats go he said there is a rule that in a two door the rear seat occupants need to be able to exit the vehicle in an emergency which suggests that both seats need to be reclinable. He said that can be a grey one and he could present a case that a one piece bucket could go in on the drivers side if the passengers seat remained a folding recliner. If the car was to be a street registered car then the seat and rails would have to be ADR approved. If there are no dedicated ADR approved rails for our car, then you can buy generic/adaptable autotechnica ADR rails and massage those. But at any rate even considering that all the gear you install is ADR approved, it still needs an engineers tick to be legal/registerable/insurable.
The kicker with seat selsction for a road registered car is that if the standard seat has airbags, then so too does the seat that replaces it. He basically said good luck finding an ADR approved airbag one piece bucket that doesn't already weigh as much as the seat we already have. He thought recaro might do one and pretty much said that considering the costs involved you would only really do it if you needed that seat to make fitment of a 5 point harness possible. At the end of the day though, the harness and your standard seat belt would have to remain dual fitted in the car and you could only use the lap sash belt on the street swapping to the harness at the track. If the car is not road registered though then the seat, rails, harness config is all up to you subject to an engineer/CAMS approval.
At the end of all this I've pretty much decided that stock standard seat/seat belt is the cheapest and possibly safest combo. I asked him about my car competing in road registered class and could I be protested for having the rear seats out of the car and he said that no matter which way you look at it they would probably uphold the protest. So my only solution there he said is to pull all the seat belt hardware (including the retractors - ****!) and seats out of the back and get an engineers certificate for a two seater = 600-700 bucks. In civilian times though it would mean I would be running around as a 5 seater with a 2 seater certificate which is technically illegal and he said that would be entirely up to me re insurance question marks etc in the event of an accident on the road. The engineering money spent would nearly be worth it eg It would be nice to be covered in the event of a protest and be able to politely tell the protagonist to F^&$k off.

[Eddy]

Hoyhoy.

Well chaps I put one of these in years ago, they are great.

CG-Lock Seatbelt Safety Devices

[sambb]

I use something similar to that. It does help a lot doesn't it.

while I'm at it there's something I forgot to mention that I learnt that's relevant to road cars with airbags and no cage on the track and that is to run with your windows up. At the Bathurst hillclimb last year a guy in an M3 in my class put his car backwards into the wall and finished up sideways along it below skyline and they had to cut him out with neck injuries. Apparently witnesses saw his curtain airbag deploy but then just fly out the open window at the point at which his head probably should have been bouncing off it. Talking to one of the competitors who is an ambo afterwards about the accident, he said that he's seen/heard of the same thing before and that if he'd had his window up the side curtain airbag would have been better able to do its thing. Apparently curtain airbags need a closed cabin to work properly so if you don't have cage/seat/harness/hans then at least running with the windows up will give you the most pillowy crash possible.