ESP, EDL & ASR what is really going on?

[gregozedobe]

gregozedobe thanks for that lecture

Seems a bit out of place on a forum where people are doing all sorts of crazy to their rides. I am not convinced that modding the ESP is any more dangerous than messing with the brakes or suspension and there is plenty of that going on here. If it is so important why can I turn it off?

I did say I was on old fuddy duddy overly concerned about safety on public roads, didn't I ?

IMHO upgrading brakes is very different to changing or switching ESP off. Improved brakes still fall under the control of ESP and ABS. And yes I agree, that some people do some crazy things to their cars - I usually just bite my tongue and say nothing, but at times I can't help expresssing my opinion (and that is all it is - my opinion, and everyone is free to have their own).

I try to express my opinions in a non-attacking fashion, and give some reasonable reasons supporting my stance.

I think SOME manufacturers give you the option to turn ESP Off so that :

A if you have to drive in thick snow or slippery mud/grass you can deliberately spin the wheels to get more traction and/or maintain momentum (but I'll bet there's some nicely worded caveat in your owner's manual warning you to switch it back on immediately), or

B if you choose to drive on a race track (ie in controlled conditions) then you have the option of turning off the electronic nanny (but if you have a prang, note that your are entirely responsible for fixing it yourself, don't bother going crying to your insurance company).

I have a hypothetical scenario for you. You are having an enjoyable "spirited" drive along a windy public road, so you have switched off your ESP. You go too fast around a particularly tricky corner, run off the road and hit a tree (it happens sometimes, even to the best drivers). Thankfully no one is hurt, but your car is pretty bent. Do you tell the police and/or your insurance company that you had switched off ESP or not ?

If you choose not to, how do you react when the insurance company extracts that information from the ECU on your car ? This is possible with some cars already (I don't know if it is stored by current VAG cars or not).

Where do you stand from a legal/insurance standpoint ? ESP could be considered a safety aid which you have deliberately disabled, and the lack of ESP may have contributed to your accident.

Remember, the above is just one person's opinion, but it is directly relevant to the original post.

[NickZ]

I know that NRMA apply lower premiums for cars that have ESP, so I imagine if you had an accident and have either tampered with it, or turned it off, and they catch you, it may void any claims.

[mozzzy_2000]

Very basically, the ESP works off the wheels sensors located on the hubs. They detect the wheel speed at any given time, and other sensors detect the yaw rate of the car at certain points in relation of steering wheel position sensors. These then work in conjunction to apply separate brakes to keep the car controlled and prevent it from spinning or becoming out of control.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/3171/benefits-of-esp/

And further to that what it does is integrate the traction control(ADR) along with the electronic diff lock(EDL) and anti lock brakes(ABS) togther to not only apply the brakes to the wheels that are loosing traction but it also adjusts engine torque and decelerates power to the those wheels as well. To really feel this, take your car around a street corner doing 60Kph, hang on tight, and feel the car loose power all of a sudden as it grapples with traction as the ESP kicks in and keeps you from coming off the road. Of course for safety reasons I would not suggest this to anyone but I have tried it myself.

I'm not so sure I would take a corner that fast without it on to be honest and like its been said you would most likely have insurance issues if you did prang it without out it on. And if you did actually play around with the ESP itself with any sort of mod I'd dare say you would render your insurance invalid period. But of of course its just an opinion & I have lots of them..lol

[gtimonkey]

Most of the mods on this forum void insurance - insurance companies have lots of lawyers who specialise in voiding insurance. I personally think it paranoid if you think your insurance company is going to read the ECU in your car. They will make everyone install real time GPS before it gets to that. (it is already starting in the UK)

My gripe with the VW ESP is that it is all bundled together with the traction control and the diff lock. It would be great to be able turn traction control off with out losing the ESP or the electronic diff lock.

NickZ I said 'modifications' not upgrades but my point in any case is that 'upgrading' your brakes and/or suspension for a particular purpose comes at a cost to other functions. Nothing gained comes for free.

eg

• superhard brake pads that are awesome for track work that take ages to warm up properly on the street.
  
• 'neutral' track ready super stiff, lowered suspension is hardly much fun on the average road - in fact it can make the car more difficult to control in certain circumstances.
  
• Semi slick tyres are another good example huge fun and bags of traction in the dry but they offer less than street tyres when it is wet.

How do we know that we are not messing with the ESP inputs already - upgraded swaybars, tyres and suspension and brakes are all going to impact the assumptions that the german ESP engineers based the system on. I personally do not this is significant - but it is hard to tell when we do not understand how the system works, we may be messing with it indirectly in any case.

[NickZ]

Fair point gtimonkey, didn't think of it that way.

In simple terms, for cornering, the ESP at all times determines if the car is going in its intended direction based on the direction of the steering wheel, and motion sensors in the vehicle (amongst other things). If it senses that the car is not following its intended course, it will reduce power and brake individual wheels to bring your car back to its intended course.

I don't think mods will affect its operation, other than if the wheel and suspension setup makes the car grip more effectively then it won't kick in as much. Something as simple as tyre selection can dramatically alter a cars handling abilities, so I doubt ESP is reliant on the cars setup.

[Blitzen]

I like to call my ESP the "Fun Police"... Many times I have found myself trying to power out of a situation only to have the Trac Control/ESP interfere and cut the power at an important point of a corner...Hence why mine is turned off most of the time.
Before I have people tell me I am driving incorrectly, this is how I drive, and I will not change it. I find it a hindrance, and I am glad I have the ability to turn it off.

[gregozedobe]

Many times I have found myself trying to power out of a situation only to have the Trac Control/ESP interfere and cut the power at an important point of a corner...Hence why mine is turned off most of the time.
Before I have people tell me I am driving incorrectly, this is how I drive, and I will not change it. I find it a hindrance, and I am glad I have the ability to turn it off.

I sincerely hope you never have cause to regret that choice.

[Blitzen]

Like I said earlier...I would rather have the ability to drive out of situations myself, then have an electrical 'Brain' do the job for me so it dulls my reactions and makes me a worse driver than I could be...My Polo is the only vehicle I drive that has driving aids(Other than power assisted brakes or a hand throttle!!). I feel if you come to rely on these, you become less of a driver and more of a liability. Its like Parking Sensors taking away the the ability for people to use there eyes and mirrors, and therefore their brain...

[RoSonic]

Has anyone attempted any mods on it? I do enjoy turning it off. The ESP makes you feel isolated from what is going on sometimes (the car says no, to throttle lift oversteer - silly car). It would be neat if it had a few extra settings.

Don't know if thay can adapt this to the Polo... or if there are other products similar to this from other companies... but I've seen on their website that Whiteline advertises a so called Black Box used to "tune" the ESP on some cars - http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/152_HBM.pdf

[mikepologti]

i think that was the one mentioned in the other thread not sure,.......

[mikepologti]

yep just did a quick search,heres the other thread.

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=23629