Polo GTI on P-Plates

[The_Hawk]

But... you can't drive a V8

The rules are:

Prohibited vehicles are those with:

Eight or more cylinders.
A turbocharged engine (except diesel).
A supercharged engine (except diesel).
Engine performance modifications that require an engineers' certificate.
Certain high performance six cylinder engine vehicles or other vehicles as described in the publication Novice Drivers - High Performance Vehicle Restrictions.

and further down the page:

Application for an exemption can be made at any motor registry upon payment of a fee. NOTE: a fee is not charged for moderate-performance turbo/supercharged engine vehicle applications.

and most importantly:

Examples of moderate performance turbo/supercharged vehicles that are eligible for exemption include:

* Audi 1197cc and 1390cc (90kW) A1
* Audi 1390cc A3
* Audi 1798cc A3 and A4
* Audi 1984cc Q5
* Skoda 1798cc Superb 1.8 TFSI and Octavia 1.8 TFSI
* Skoda 1197cc Fabia, 1390cc Fabia(1.4)and Yeti
* Volkswagen 1390cc Golf 90TSI and Golf 118TSI
* Volkswagen 1984cc Tiguan 125TSI, 132TSI, 155TSI and Passat 147TSI
* Volkswagen 1197cc Polo 77TSI

Source: P1 and P2 vehicle and passenger conditions < Car < Getting a licence < Licensing < www.rta.nsw.gov.au

There is an even longer list here:
A guide to moderate performance vehicles < Downloads < Licensing < www.rta.nsw.gov.au

Which include every Golf Mk6 except the GTI and R (so 77, 90 and 118TSI) along with the Polo 9n GTI and Mk4 Golf GTI.

So while they are all still "prohibited" walking into the RTA and filing in the form will get you an exemption for all the listed vehicles without question or cost, for anything else you have to justify why you should have it and pay the fee.

[brad]

Can't wait until the government finally does what should have done forever ago and introduce power-to-weight restrictions. Outrageous that a P Plater can't drive a 77TSI Polo but can go and flog a V8 around. Pretty soon most new car engines will have turbos I think.

V8s aren't allowed (which is also kind of stupid because my 4.2L V8 VB Commodore put out less power & torque than my stock 1.8TSI Skoda does).

Keep in mind that even a 3.0L Commodore Omega puts out 190kw (and if the Holden V6 in our Captiva is an example they are much better / revvier engines than a few years back).

So yes, agree with you

[amazeer]

Wonder if the rta will apply for an exemption for the high performance diesels that are coming (and already here).
280kw BMW diesel triple turbo is fully P plate legal. Its a pity law makers are clueless.

[iigx]

I may be showing my age but I appreciate the restrictions.

My first car was a $1000 Mitsubish Colt that had the 0-60 of about 20 seconds. I've learnt to drive in crap, and gradually moved up to high performance cars. From my experiences I can pretty much hop in any car and drive the pants off it while being completely safe.

If you start off in a high performance car it's just going to end badly.

[Vdubboys81]

Wonder if the rta will apply for an exemption for the high performance diesels that are coming (and already here).
280kw BMW diesel triple turbo is fully P plate legal. Its a pity law makers are clueless.

Ill probably get yelled at for saying this but I think that BMW diesel should be completely banned for P-Platers. Any car with that much power and torque and a 0-100km of a shade over 4.5 sec should absolutely be banned. That's too much power and speed for any new driver.

[nomadx38]

Going by that logic (and the government) I SHOULD have had more than 15 minor crashes, 3 fatal in my 3 years of driving on my P's with my performance-ish Polo TSI. And guess what...None

The restrictions are crap. I got plenty of friends with their crappy commodores who have had crashes, write offs and serious injuries - all caused by older full licences drivers...not to say that my friends are the best drivers and could have prevented the crashes in the first place.

I'm all for the 120 hours practice though! I would also like to see mandatory defensive driving courses. I see a lot to young drivers who should just not have a licence...

[Vdubboys81]

Going by that logic (and the government) I SHOULD have had more than 15 minor crashes, 3 fatal in my 3 years of driving on my P's with my performance-ish Polo TSI. And guess what...None

The restrictions are crap. I got plenty of friends with their crappy commodores who have had crashes, write offs and serious injuries - all caused by older full licences drivers...not to say that my friends are the best drivers and could have prevented the crashes in the first place.

I'm all for the 120 hours practice though! I would also like to see mandatory defensive driving courses. I see a lot to young drivers who should just not have a licence...

I think that the laws should be based on power and not engine size etc. a 77TSI is great for a P Plater and even I'd say a GTI. And not every P Plater is a bad driver. There are many "bad" drivers regardless of age. But it's often time the inexperience that causes issues. I often see P Platers weaving in and out of traffic, far exceeding their speed limits set by red or green P, and many reckless drivers. Again not all P players are bad drivers, but as research shows (as reflected by insurance premiums) less experienced drivers tend to have the most incidents. I was the same when I started driving. But driving "can" become better with age to a certain point of course, and many full license drivers are horrible.

The point is, power should be the guide for restrictions. As stated before, BMWs new tri-turbo diesel is exempt for P Platers, yet it has tons of power and is faster than I'd say 90% of the cars in the road. So the RTA is telling some great responsible driver they can't drive a Polo GTI but they can this new BMW? That's madness and the laws need to change to reflect this.

[The_Hawk]

Interestingly, VIC Roads have actually gone with a power to weight rule for turbo cars (although it needs to be marked as such by the manufacturer). I have done this before and being a numbers man will go and do it again

So they have set the number at 130kW/t which is very interesting number.

First up, that BMW M50d at 280kW and 2.225t comes in at 125.8kW/t so even if the power figure was extended to diesels it still meets guidelines.

Even the Golf R in it's manual form (which is lighter so will have a higher power to weight) is 188/1.476 = 127.4kW/t
(so the GTI is also fine give it has less power)

The Polo GTI: 132/1.189 = 111.0kW/t
The Golf GTI: 155/1.36 = 114.0kW/t

While you're thinking about these things the new Ford Falcon EcoBoost is 179kW at 1.648t for 108.6kW/t (the 6 is about 115kW/t in case you were wondering)

So yeah, all the performance VW's would actually fit under the VIC Roads requirements. The Golf GTI and Polo GTI's would come in under the power to weight of the Falcon I6 and only a hair above the EcoBoost... If they were not labelled as "performance models" they would probably be acceptable...


I'd be interested in suggestions on where you draw the line for what is in and what is out?
Power to weight? (Nm or kW?)
Time to 100kph?
Quarter mile time?
Some other metric?

[nomadx38]

Haha no P plater would go for a diesel that's why the RTA isn't concerned. It just wouldn't have that "cool" factor we young people so desperately and sadly try to achieve.

Me on the other hand, hell yeah I would go for a tri turbo, diesel or petrol so long as it goes...and it does!

Also I think it's 100kw per ton. It may have changed recently but this was the requirement when I got my exemption in 2011.

And frankly I don't think there should be any restrictions on cara but more emphasis on driving skill. not this your doing 2 km/h over the limit crap you fail, but proper tests that demonstrate to the inspector that you can "handle" the car not follow rules like a dog...

When I was in Europe on holidays the rental car company didn't have any problems about a 18 year old getting behind the wheel of a M3 or M5 and going nuts on the autobahn. What I did mind was the cost to rent it XD

[Vdubboys81]

Interestingly, VIC Roads have actually gone with a power to weight rule for turbo cars (although it needs to be marked as such by the manufacturer). I have done this before and being a numbers man will go and do it again

So they have set the number at 130kW/t which is very interesting number.

First up, that BMW M50d at 280kW and 2.225t comes in at 125.8kW/t so even if the power figure was extended to diesels it still meets guidelines.

Even the Golf R in it's manual form (which is lighter so will have a higher power to weight) is 188/1.476 = 127.4kW/t
(so the GTI is also fine give it has less power)

The Polo GTI: 132/1.189 = 111.0kW/t
The Golf GTI: 155/1.36 = 114.0kW/t

While you're thinking about these things the new Ford Falcon EcoBoost is 179kW at 1.648t for 108.6kW/t (the 6 is about 115kW/t in case you were wondering)

So yeah, all the performance VW's would actually fit under the VIC Roads requirements. The Golf GTI and Polo GTI's would come in under the power to weight of the Falcon I6 and only a hair above the EcoBoost... If they were not labelled as "performance models" they would probably be acceptable...


I'd be interested in suggestions on where you draw the line for what is in and what is out?
Power to weight? (Nm or kW?)
Time to 100kph?
Quarter mile time?
Some other metric?

Awesome numbers! And I see your point. Based merely on power and weight of the vehicle, it wouldn't work. So perhaps speed? As many Hi-Po German cars are extremely heavy, and extremely powerful. Yet the power weight ratios are within guidelines. So perhaps base it on average 0-100km times. But even that theory has flaws as well. And 1/4 mile times is also flawed as some cars eat up the quarter mile insanely quick but have a lower top speed and some barely start making significant power at the 1/4 mile and from there up are insane. Take a Merc AMG CL65, in most countries limited to 250 km/h top speed, but hits 100km in roughly 4.2 seconds. Versus a Cadillac CTS V which will hit 319 km/h top end but 0-100km at about 4.8 sec. So which so we base the law on, the AMG with more overall power, quicker 0-100km time, or the Caddy less power but higher top end?

If it were to be based on acceleration times, the scale would have to change with time. As say 20 years ago, a 0-100km time of 6.5 sec was fast, now many cars routinely do the same in the 4's. But then who is to say what is safe and what isn't. Do we restrict acceleration times or top speeds? Either could potentially create accidents. And of course what specific "body" is testing 0-100km times could vary greatly with results. So that's a tough one to actually do what is right. I do believe in some sort of restrictions on cars but what would be fairest and safest? I honestly would not have a logical solution and with the different opinions brought up, I can see the difficulty with what to include on a banned list and what is not. There are too many variables to work with unless the law was a blanket law covering everyone equally and tests conducted by just one "institute" or group. L plates 0-100km/h greater than 9 secs, first P greater than 8 secs, second P greater than 7 secs, full licence anything available?? But how would this be instituted? Electronic controls on a vehicles ECU to limit acceleration? (Such as many modern vehicles "limp-modes" allowing them to get home, dealer etc at a limited speed and limited power). But this can be circumvented by anyone. So honestly I have no idea what would work best. Maybe just allow everyone to drive whatever they choose to.

any suggestions for any other legislation ?

And excellent points brought up by all. Great minds!!

(Caddy time are rough from the 1st gen)

[amazeer]

I'm hypocritical because I just ran up the back of someone a month ago (though it was my first at fault accident in over 20 years) but P platers are easily the most dangerous drivers I see. Not the only dangerous ones, but easily highest proportion. Tailgating, speed and insane lane changing are largely their domain. They are obviously most likely to be involved in fatalities. News footage seems to suggest that its not necessarily power that gets people into trouble it is handling. If you overcook a corner in a front drive car and lift off and it generally comes good. If you do that in even a low powered rear drive car, chances are you'll get lift off oversteer (if its not oversteering already). Then you either go into oncoming traffic or over correct and into a tree. It wont happen but a better option than power to weight would be how the vehicle handles in an emergency situation.

Qualification for comment: My other accident was as a P plater, Datsun 180B, 100 in a 60 zone, oversteer heading towards head on with a kombi, overcorrect, fences, thankfully small tree else I would be gooooone. I dont know that driver training is an answer. It would just give you confidence to go even faster. Senna and Brock seemed to know a bit about car control but they still got it wrong even without the natural invincibility of a teenager.

Friggin pensioners though, every couple of weeks one of them ends up in the news after driving into a swimming pool or off a carpark roof or crushes someone up against a wall. What do you do about them.

[iigx]

Agreed. Not all P' platers are terrible, but the sheer majority are. And unfortunatelly as Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear says - it is often because people don't care about cars or driving. If you dont care about your car or your driving, then you are no good at it. If you are no good at it, then you shouldn't have a license.

I witnessed a crash infront of me only a month ago where a P-plater in a Mitsubish Mirage ran up the rear of a Ford G6E Turbo, that then was pushed into the rear of a brand new BMW 750i. Apart from the fact she probably did around $100k of damage to the two cars, she was on her mobile phone, and eating a bucket of chips from KFC!!! I see it all the time, and 99% of the time, it is young female P platers, or young men (not necessarily P platers) who couldnt care less about the fact they are supposed to be checking their mirrors and keeping a check of their surroundings. Fortunatelly I was paying close attention to her and even though my GTI's tyres squeeled to a halt, I was far back enough to still be a good 15-20 meters away from the rear of her car when my GTI came to a dead stop.

[Hail22]

Agreed with the above posts...what really annoys me as most of us aware we attend functions, or gatherings. We enjoy a good feed and enjoy a good time catching up with those we like to be close to...yet most of my journeys home I've notice one thorn in my side...a ****e load of tail gaters, rev dumpers and to think...I'm sitting firm in the further left hand lane so they can go about their childish business (Some adults act like this as well). I mean at 11pm at night driving home after a lovely yet long night out...I want to get home safe / awake rather than firmly wrapped around a pole.

You can never change this attitude...it all has to begin at home...perhaps one day we may have a similar licensing system like finland (Defensive driver course, must pass a hill decent with only the hand brake, must complete a rally course before you can even get your "L" plater variant). You'll notice then that most drivers will cease to act "immortal".

[shauno]

Polo GTI on P-Plates

Picking up a 77TSI this weekend for my missus - but she has to wait another 7-10 days for an RTA exception letter, due to its evil little turbo.

Just means she has to keep driving the P-plater approved R32 until then

[Guest001]

I'm hypocritical because I just ran up the back of someone a month ago (though it was my first at fault accident in over 20 years) but P platers are easily the most dangerous drivers I see. Not the only dangerous ones, but easily highest proportion. Tailgating, speed and insane lane changing are largely their domain. They are obviously most likely to be involved in fatalities. News footage seems to suggest that its not necessarily power that gets people into trouble it is handling. If you overcook a corner in a front drive car and lift off and it generally comes good. If you do that in even a low powered rear drive car, chances are you'll get lift off oversteer (if its not oversteering already). Then you either go into oncoming traffic or over correct and into a tree. It wont happen but a better option than power to weight would be how the vehicle handles in an emergency situation.

Qualification for comment: My other accident was as a P plater, Datsun 180B, 100 in a 60 zone, oversteer heading towards head on with a kombi, overcorrect, fences, thankfully small tree else I would be gooooone. I dont know that driver training is an answer. It would just give you confidence to go even faster. Senna and Brock seemed to know a bit about car control but they still got it wrong even without the natural invincibility of a teenager.

Friggin pensioners though, every couple of weeks one of them ends up in the news after driving into a swimming pool or off a carpark roof or crushes someone up against a wall. What do you do about them.

Dont pick on us pensioners a a general group I have had a licence for 57 years and have had 2 at fault accidents.

Both due to inattention when trying to do to many things at once when Taxi driving.

Yes there are some who are terrible but as a group the % of the total would be far less than others. Most of us would be tucked up in bed when the hoons are wrapping themselves around trees killing themselves by the car full.
I still can drive point to point in very good times and dont drive slow and hold the impatient ones up.
Even when vanning I would pull over when possible (Pats myself on back here)LOL.

I agree that inexperience and supposed being bombproof is the biggest problem.

From my observation in our area the biggest tailgaters, lane changers and speeders are young ladies in small cars who must be first to anywhere. as well as those things they are frequently talking on the phone or doing almost anything but actually concentrating on driving the car.
I was taught to "Read the road" like look as far ahead as you can see So if the 5th car ahead brakes get ready to do the same.

Then you wouldnt have nose to tails, as most only look as far as the front of their bonnet.

We also were taught what to do when things went wrong We took a 34 Ford V8 out on wet paddocks and learnt to control skids and slides, We also lived at the end of nearly 100km of gravel road so had so pretty good lessons of how to drive on that (in an Austin A70) which was a great grounding for later. Should be taught today as so many automatically do the wrong thing because they have never been taught otherwise. Brock was driving a notoriously bad handling car and made a mistake Sena was Ok till the wheel hit him on the head

End of Rant