77TSI vs 66TDI

[The_Hawk]

I have now driven both, although one was manual and the other DSG and am very seriously debating which way to go.

The 77TSI with DSG seemed quicker. Markedly quicker. And since I want manual I expect it to be a bit of a mini weapon.

The 66TDI goes pretty damn well too. The manual variant I drove was damn nice too, shifting very nicely and the torque made is very nice to drive.

Of course there is the difference in perception of the manual vs DSG. In manual you tend to shift earlier rather than run the whole gear out meaning you don't use all the power, yet in DSG/Auto the gearbox will ride out further when you put your foot down. Long story short I do wonder if there is as much between the two as there seems.


My real problem, or should I say my concern is the DPF. I drive very short distances probably 14 days out of 15 <10 km so probably not enough to get up to temp. This means I'm likely to be adding extra soot to the DPF, something I don't want to have to replace. I believe (think?) there are DPF delete tunes available so when/if it becomes an issue there is a cheaper (and more powerful) option than having to replace the thing.


The simple answer at this point is to get the 77TSI... but then the problem is finding one. Especially when you consider I would like a yellow one (not everyone's taste I know). There *might* be a red or a blue available in a few weeks and the price is right. I'm very very tempted to sign up and take one of those and be on my way.

Then the flip side if I wait 5 months I can get the colour I want and can order the Sunroof (which I have been told is now a factory option).... Ahhh decisions.


But to the point, what the go with Diesel and short trips these days?

[gavs]

I'm no expert (like most forum users out in the world!) but in regards to DPF, if you aren't going to be getting it up to temp (I'm using a Suzuki Grand Vitara as a benchmark here) then you will be up for a hefty price tag come replacement time because if you don't regularly run it up to temp to burn off all that soot that gets built up, night night DPF to the tune of $5k, knowing VW, add another 50% on top of that price locally!

This is why "Ad Blue" is being used now, to eliminate the need for a DPF. I don't think the 66TDi is an Ad Blue car, so this is redundant in this situation but it is the alternative.

I thought that Savannah Yellow was being discontinued.... Either way, you're going to get a miserly engine with plenty of poke for the daily commute and when benchmarked against the competition in the same price bracket, a pretty good little car. My choice? 77TSI because of the power as well as the torque

[PoloPie]

I'm certainly no expert either, and while I own a TDI, I think you might be better off with the TSI based on the short distances you'd be traveling most days. I regularly drive >15kms on every trip at 80kph+ for at least half the trip, so getting the DPF up to temperature wouldn't be an issue for me I suppose.

I really had no idea about the DPF until I started reading about it, well after purchasing the car - it's a bit concerning reading about the price for replacement... $4-7k sure isn't appealing. That being said, if you're not driving that far day to day and you could possibly drive it hard for a bit longer on the 15th day then it would probably take a long time for the DPF to need replacing anyway, right?

Anyway, considering that the 77TSI is cheaper to begin with and fuel prices about the same, and since you've highlighted issues with the TDI and none with the TSI besides actually sourcing one, maybe it is a better choice in the long run, if you're up for a long wait now

Up to you and whether you'll be able to find the car that you really want without waiting too long, or get one that you like but might be costly or problematic down the track, or placing an order and getting exactly what you want but waiting decisions, decisions...

That's my two cents despite owning and enjoying the 66TDI (with manual too), I'll be seconding gavs.

[kaanage]

Actually, I think you'll find that all "passeger" cars that use AdBlue use it in addition to a DPF to prevent the things dying too soon. These are usually SUVs, like the Toureg, that are heavy so they dump a load of soot at takeoff or going up hills without AdBlue. That would kill a DPF in a few thousand km and would be continually regenerating the DPF before that, especially around town. And AdBlue itself isn't cheap and needs to be replenished when it runs out else the cars won't run.

DPFs really suck and I hate that my Golf has one. The worse the power to weight, the more the DPF will get sooted up in town use so the small Polo engine would really worry me for a city car, especially if most of the trips will be short. PoloPie's usage is ideal for the TDi, though.

Hawk, if you want a small VW town runabout and don't want to wait, see if Sth Yarra VW really have any of the old 9N3 TDi's left (as CarSales would indicate). I got the last one (a manual Pacific spec) that Burwin had for less than $20,000 on road.
They have the same engine as WEDEL.1's Golf and you can see from the size of the trailer that he is hauling from SA to WA that it has loads of torque and can easily be chipped up from 74kW to close to 100kW. Mine made 85kW at the wheel at the recent dyno day.
Compared to the newer TDi, the 9N3 will pull from idle and I often use 1500rpm as a shift point but it will happily rev to 3500rpm (not much point beyond that in stock tune)
They aren't as classy as the 6R (I reckon the 9N3 looks frumpy and dump) but they're well built with a solid record of reliability.

Best of all, there is no DPF to worry about. I'd be happy for you to test drive mine if you find they are a bit flat as standard and are in Melbourne for some reason.

For further info on DPFs, just trawl the Diesel subforum

[Transporter]

Actually, I think you'll find that all "passeger" cars that use AdBlue use it in addition to a DPF to prevent the things dying too soon. These are usually SUVs, like the Toureg, that are heavy so they dump a load of soot at takeoff or going up hills without AdBlue. That would kill a DPF in a few thousand km and would be continually regenerating the DPF before that, especially around town. And AdBlue itself isn't cheap and needs to be replenished when it runs out else the cars won't run.

Our 2008 Toureg V6 TDI has no ad blue additive just the DPF and so far, we have done a bit over 50,000km mostly city driving and in last 2 years short trips to the train stop without any ill affect on the DPF. I don't plan replacing it and am confident that it will last past 200,000km.

[Transporter]

I have now driven both, although one was manual and the other DSG and am very seriously debating which way to go.

The 77TSI with DSG seemed quicker. Markedly quicker. And since I want manual I expect it to be a bit of a mini weapon.

Reading this you're set to get TSI, and let's be honest, the fuel economy is close to the diesel, so unless the car is loaded with the passengers most of the times, I vote TSI, but please don't tell Sharkie .

[William_Foster]

I have a 2010 Polo TDI DSG and love it; but...

- I only do small trips irregularly when I drive it to and from work; when doing this I have had the DPF operate [Not sure what the proper term is] at low speeds and it is a little bit disconcerting.
- If I knew what I know now, and I was only doing small trips all the time I would probably go the TSI.

Having said that, I didn't by the car to go to and from work, and it performs brilliantly on the longer trips, the torque is fantastic up hills and on the windy stuff the motor is well matched to the gearbox and makes the drive enjoyable.

The TDI isn't a GTI; it is pretty slow off the line, but I have found it more decent around town on short trips, and brilliant when its out and about.

The TDI is much better than I was expecting it to be; its just a pity you are doing the majority of short trips at slow speeds.

[The_Hawk]

Yeah, I'm very much leaning towards the TSI. Right now I'm in three minds

Option 1. Pick something up that is available now, which I might add is a pretty good price.
Option 2. Order exactly what I want, although it will probably cost more and I have to wait 6 months-ish.
Option 3. Do nothing, keep the VR6 and just drive that and spend nothing.

[kaanage]

Our 2008 Toureg V6 TDI has no ad blue additive just the DPF and so far, we have done a bit over 50,000km mostly city driving and in last 2 years short trips to the train stop without any ill affect on the DPF. I don't plan replacing it and am confident that it will last past 200,000km.

Actually, thinking about it more, I think I have the engine size/DPF regen thing a$$ about. It's the big engined, heavy diesels that are more likely to be needing AdBlue since they are more likely to be lugged with the abundant low end torque that they have - a smaller, lower powered engine will need more revs to build power rather than relying on torque and this will increase the heat in the DPF and reduce the soot production.

I think this is why the new Polo has been tuned for less low end torque than you would expect - to force operation higher in the rev range to reduce the occurance of DPF regens. The early UK experiences seem very poor with city users complaining of very high numbers of regens leading to poor running and much worse than expected fuel consumption. The problem with this "solution" is that you can't get the economy that the engine is capable of, if it was able to be optimally tuned and it won't have the nice torque off idle.

I'd hate to think of how often a performance tuned diesel would be regenerating its DPF if used mainly in city/suburban driving since the path to higher diesel performance tends to be over fuelling.

[themmc]

My real problem, or should I say my concern is the DPF. I drive very short distances probably 14 days out of 15 <10 km so probably not enough to get up to temp.

If you're going short distances then it's worth working out if paying extra for a Diesel is worth it. I did the numbers and couldn't see making it worth it. Plus the 77TSI was pretty neat to drive. Wish mine would hurry up!

[The_Hawk]

One of the dealers I have talked to in the last few days said something along the lines of they have to ask people 20 questions now if they ask for a diesel to ensure they are driving an appropriate distance and all that. An interesting little tid bit.

[pologti18t]

DPF for particulates.
AdBlue for NOX emissions.

Totally different reason for fitting either.

Adblue is another expense as it has to be replenished at service intervals and it isn't cheap.

As I said... in Wheel COTY they mentioned on more than one occassion that the TDI was the weakest link in the Polo range. That it costs a significant amount more than a 1.2TSI would have me discounting it as an option.

[philthy]

Chipped 77 TSI... you know you want to

[The_Hawk]

Chipped 77 TSI... you know you want to

yes, yes I do.

[kaanage]

If you're going short distances then it's worth working out if paying extra for a Diesel is worth it

You mean long distances, right?

DPF for particulates.
AdBlue for NOX emissions.

Totally different reason for fitting either.

My bad - I had been led to believe that it aided post combustion burning of carbon as well as nitrous oxides.
But it goes to show that running AdBlue is not a replacement for DPFs.