Rear ended with Engine damage

[Sword_Dude]

Hi all,

About a month ago I was heavily rear ended in my Polo and while in getting the panel repair work done the engine catastrophically failed.

I have put it to the insurer that this was a result of the accident or possibly mistreatment by the repairers staff.

My Polo is at a dealership now and requires a full engine replacement.

My argument to the insurer is that prior to the accident the car was in good working condition and had been regularly serviced with the last service 3 months prior.

The insurer is stating that a rear end accident cannot damage the motor and is rejecting the claim as it is mechanical failure.

A little further info...
I had the last service invoice in the owners manual in the glovebox of the car in which the mechanic had noted possible worn timing chain and the assessor has seen this. When I got the car serviced the mechanic had noted the rattle on startup after the service but said to me that could have been due to low oil pressure as the oil had just been changed (during the service) and that if it did it again to have a look at it but only to be really concerned if the rattle was sustained for over 30 seconds and occurred regularly. The rattle only happens very infrequently on the car (once a month and only for a couple of seconds) so I had not bothered with it too much and had spoken with a VW mechanic who had said it happens sometimes but not to be concerned unless it started happening more frequently.

The accident was a heavy shunt which lifted the rear of the car and pushed me 3+ metres forward and did damage the exhaust along with the lower rear panel work etc.

After the accident I drove the car for almost a week prior to the car being booked in for repairs, but I noticed a strong fumey smell in the cabin after the car was driven for a while. When this continued I called the repairer and arranged to drop the car off early as I didn't want to do any more damage. The insurance assessor is stating that this is because I was tail ended and it has pushed the fuel up the overflow pipe which is what I am smelling, but I was smelling this a week after the accident and it became more noticeable the longer I drove.

VW have done a diagnosis on the car and state it is not the timing chain but there is so much damage they cannot tell what happened, there is a cracked piston, crushed sparkplugs etc, the workshop manager has stated he has never seen anything like it but VW are going to assist with the cost of the parts for the motor.

After all this I am still up for a hefty sum which I think should be covered under insurance.

Has anyone got any thoughts on this?

thanks

Michael

[simon k]

bizarre - initially you'd think that if the exhaust was hit then it was pushed up into the motor and it's cracked at the manifold somewhere, which would explain the fumey smell that got worse. Driving it around with a cracked manifold will make it crack more. Pushing fuel up the overflow pipe is bulls*it because we always have fuel going up the overflow pipe, that's what it's there for...

Cracked pistons and bent sparkplugs - were there bent valves as well? if the timing chain skipped some teeth or the tensioner has fallen apart, then the pistons will hit the valves and you get catastrophic failure, but if that happened during the accident then it would have been DOA at the repairer.

What gearbox do you have? manual or DSG? if it's a manual and you were stationary, it was either out of gear, or in gear with the clutch depressed. In either case, the fact that the car was pushed forward could not have any impact on the motor. However, if you have a DSG it might be a very different story - the sudden acceleration through the 'box might have done something to basically overrev the engine from standstill, that may make a mess of the timing chain tensioner assembly. If the tensioner assembly was damaged in the accident, then it's possible that it was OK for a week or so then fell to bits... But realistically, the chances of that happening are very low, and very difficult to prove

I reckon your car has had it - I'd get a second hand motor from the wreckers then sell it - preferably as a trade-in so you don't have to look the poor b*stard who is buying it in the face...

[Sydneykid]

I suggest a very long and detailed chat with the VW mechanics, ask them to have a think about what could have possibly happened. If it went 3 metres forward due to the impact then the front wheels obviously turned. As per Simon's question, DSG in drive or manual in neutral or in gear, what about the clutch, did your foot slip off and it engaged? Was the engine stopped (BlueMotion) when the accident happened?

My guesses (educated guesses, but still guesses), the impact rotated the stopped engine which importantly had no oil pressure. As a result there was no oil film separating the big end bearing from the crank journal. The additional travel then allowed the piston/s to lightly hit the cylinder head. Not enough to cause instantaneous failure but enough to cause ring gland cracking that gradually got worse as the car was driven. It is also possible that rotating the engine rapidly and suddenly with zero oil pressure caused a slight pick up in the main or big end bearings which over time resulted in a big end grab and resulting piston failure. With no oil pressure there would also be no cam chain tension which could result in valve to piston contact causing similar ring gland cracking. That doesn't always result in bent valves, it depends on the contact angles. It could be one or all of these, or something else entitrely.

There are automotive engineering consultants who specialise in reporting obscure mechanical failures from an independent perspective. If necessary I'd suggest contacting your closest one.


Cheers
Gary

[Sword_Dude]

Hi Guys,

My Polo is a manual so the DSG in gear options do not apply.

The discussion I had with the VW mechanics basically was that the damage was so comprehensive that they can't tell what caused it. However VWA, out of Goodwill, have agreed to pay 100% of parts which I think is a pretty good start for a vehicle that is now 7 years old with about 65k on the clock. I am still left to foot the bill for $700 of dealer diagnosis and the labour to replace the motor (about another $3,000). The dealer workshop manager said he has never seen anything like it.

My point though is how can the insurer conclusively say that the accident played no part in the damage and just avoid it all saying it was mechanical breakdown which is not covered under the policy.


Simon K why do you say this?? Hopefully with a new engine this problem is totally resolved??
"I reckon your car has had it - I'd get a second hand motor from the wreckers then sell it - preferably as a trade-in so you don't have to look the poor b*stard who is buying it in the face... "


thanks

[brad]

$3k labour to replace a motor? How? Or is that a rebuild as well?

[Sydneykid]

Hi Guys,
My Polo is a manual so the DSG in gear options do not apply.

Was it in neutral or in gear with the clutch in? If it has it was BlueMotion engaged (engine stop)? Did your foot slip off the clutch when you got hit? Maybe rotated the engine until it stopped due to you having you foot back on the brake pedal. When hit from behind it's not unusual for both feet to come off pedals. You need to think back, replay it in your mind and isolate what physically went on.

The discussion I had with the VW mechanics basically was that the damage was so comprehensive that they can't tell what caused it.

Something caused it, and the timing looks suspiciously like that something happened in the accident. Or in the panel shop while it was being repaired.

Insurance assessors are pretty good with spotting panel damage but are generally not very experienced with mechanical issues that can often pop up after accidents ie; they are normally panel beaters not mechanics. So he can't argue with a qualified mechanic who comes up with a plausible reason why it "could" have occurred as a result of what happened in the accident. He doesn't have to prove it, the assessor would have to disprove it which it seems he can't do.


Cheers
Gary

[Sword_Dude]

$3k labour to replace a motor? How? Or is that a rebuild as well?

A rebuild as well I believe. But this is at dealership rates so we are talking (I think from memory) $175/hr so about 2 days labour.

cheers

[Sword_Dude]

Was it in neutral or in gear with the clutch in? If it has it was BlueMotion engaged (engine stop)? Did your foot slip off the clutch when you got hit? Maybe rotated the engine until it stopped due to you having you foot back on the brake pedal. When hit from behind it's not unusual for both feet to come off pedals. You need to think back, replay it in your mind and isolate what physically went on.

Something caused it, and the timing looks suspiciously like that something happened in the accident. Or in the panel shop while it was being repaired.

Insurance assessors are pretty good with spotting panel damage but are generally not very experienced with mechanical issues that can often pop up after accidents ie; they are normally panel beaters not mechanics. So he can't argue with a qualified mechanic who comes up with a plausible reason why it "could" have occurred as a result of what happened in the accident. He doesn't have to prove it, the assessor would have to disprove it which it seems he can't do.

Hi,

My foot was on the clutch and no Bluemotion. This happened 2 months ago but I am pretty sure the engine was running after the accident but I could be misremembering.

It all comes down to how much money I want to pay to come up with a plausible reason why this is a result of the accident, and my insurer may still reject it or part of it.

At the moment I have lodged a dispute through the insurer and directed VW to fix my car (I need my car back as I have been borrowing cars to get to work). I guess I can only wait and see what happens.

Thanks

Michael

[simon k]

Simon K why do you say this?? Hopefully with a new engine this problem is totally resolved??
"I reckon your car has had it - I'd get a second hand motor from the wreckers then sell it - preferably as a trade-in so you don't have to look the poor b*stard who is buying it in the face... "

A car is rarely the same after an accident, they're always off in some way.... even if you've just lost trust in it

If the car had a hit bad enough to damage the engine, what else is damaged? is the rear suspension going to start causing problems? the gearbox did take the brunt of the mechanical impact, is it going to be OK? did they put a new exhaust on it, or did they just bodge together what was there?

They straightened the panels and maybe pulled the chassis straight, but insurance repair jobs are usually done as quickly and cheaply as possible. Insurance companies really don't like paying for quality work to be done

[Sydneykid]

Hi,
My foot was on the clutch and no Bluemotion. This happened 2 months ago but I am pretty sure the engine was running after the accident but I could be misremembering.
It all comes down to how much money I want to pay to come up with a plausible reason why this is a result of the accident, and my insurer may still reject it or part of it.
At the moment I have lodged a dispute through the insurer and directed VW to fix my car (I need my car back as I have been borrowing cars to get to work). I guess I can only wait and see what happens.
Thanks
Michael

It's your call, I'm just throwing up suggestions. Any decent mechanic should be able to give you plenty of plausible reasons why the accident could have caused the engine damage. My local guy charges $80 per workshop hour and I reckon he could come up with plenty in half an hour. You don't need a mechanical engineering consultant, just a qualified mechanic. At the moment you are being told stuff by the insurance assessor, who has an agenda to keep the costs down and deny everything. And a VW service tech who may not want to pee off the insurance company and/or expose VW to warranty or other issues. Of course they are going to give you a biased opinion. You need someone on your side to put up some plausible alternatives.

Cheers
Gary

[KiwiME]

I think you're lucky to get any financial assistance at all from VW and should let it be

[Sword_Dude]

I think you're lucky to get any financial assistance at all from VW and should let it be

That is part of my concern, if I go too hard I may end up shooting myself in the foot?

[Sword_Dude]

It's your call, I'm just throwing up suggestions. Any decent mechanic should be able to give you plenty of plausible reasons why the accident could have caused the engine damage. My local guy charges $80 per workshop hour and I reckon he could come up with plenty in half an hour. You don't need a mechanical engineering consultant, just a qualified mechanic. At the moment you are being told stuff by the insurance assessor, who has an agenda to keep the costs down and deny everything. And a VW service tech who may not want to pee off the insurance company and/or expose VW to warranty or other issues. Of course they are going to give you a biased opinion. You need someone on your side to put up some plausible alternatives.

Cheers
Gary

Thanks for your help Gary, as I've said I put in a dispute to the insurer and we will see what happens.