Towing a Camper Trailer

[Rocket36]

Well all I can say is that I have had experience and you havent it seems so i will leave it at that as you seem to know it all. You wont need a WDH with a1400kg van anyway and you would rip the arse out of a Passat using one

LOL! Explain how I would "rip the arse out of a Passat" using a WDH? Using a WDH improves the towing abilities of cars. Hell my old man used to tow his 20" trailer sailer behind his FWD Verada sedan back in the day and without a WDH he would have had NO TRACTION.

I don't claim to know it all, but I do claim to have some common sense.

[Guest001]

LOL! Explain how I would "rip the arse out of a Passat" using a WDH? Using a WDH improves the towing abilities of cars. Hell my old man used to tow his 20" trailer sailer behind his FWD Verada sedan back in the day and without a WDH he would have had NO TRACTION.

I don't claim to know it all, but I do claim to have some common sense.

Because a WDH correctly applied puts additional stress on the towbar and mountings and Im sure a Passat is not designed to take the stress of a van going through a spoon drain or similar..

Read up about Nisan Xtrails that had the problem and it literally ripped the towbars out of the chassis. Get on the Caravanners Forum and ask them. All the experts are on there and discuss/argue about this very question which gets asked at least twice a week.

Dont go there any more as its groundhog day every day

[Jondalar]

The RVMA has a long history of saying you need a 10% ball weight, but this is unproven and most Euro vans only have 5% or less. The video you shared actually proved that centralised mass is what's needed for stability, not ball weight...

Hmm you obviously arent up to speed with towing dynamics are you If you have no weight on the ball the van is subject to sway and yaw and that very fact got three people killed a few years ago

Read this and learn Jong Coronial Report.rtf - Google Drive

and this perfectly tells you why your theory is wrong


Watch this video and you may understand

YouTube


What SHOULD be and what needs to be are two different things

[doc_777]

Um that's because it is! Are you saying that's not how it is in Australia? I mean it's fairly basic engineering to get a trailer to be evenly balanced when it's horizontal to the ground (single or double axle) to the point where you shouldn't need to put the jockey wheel down on double axles. Then when you hitch it up, you make the necessary adjustments to the hitch setup to two horizontally. The tow car should be pulling, not holding one end off the ground.

no, that’s not what i’m saying - what I inferred is that athe euros believe it, and have followed through with action.

However if aus van manufacturers believed it, you wouldn’t see so many front kitchens, rear en-suite etc. you don’t see many euro vans wth towing stability issues, but you see plenty of aus manufactured vans with sway problems - despite the so-called ‘10% rule’ which some people preach.

i’ve got a few towing runs on the board...

[doc_777]

You are factually incorrect. A classic example was in 1996 when Toyota intoduced a higher limit for the vehicle and a new bar with a capacity of 3500kg It also fitted the 1995 model which only had a 2500kg tow limit.

They refused to up that limit forever

A towbar manufacturer can make a towbar that exceeds a vehicles capacity and you can fit it BUT the ADR RULES say this



The towing limits of a vehicle are

" The limit set by the manufacturer of the vehicle or the Towbar maker WHICHEVER IS THE LESSER"

So Vehicle limit 1500kg towbar 1800kg Limit is 1500kg

Vehicle limit 1500kg Towbar 1200kg Limit is 1200kg

The MAXIMUM BALL weight is the limit set by the manufacturer

Vehicle limit 90kg Towbar 150kg Limit is 90 Kg

That is the law

Euro vans are built differently and so get a lower ball weight. They are also built lighter using different materials tobe able to do this.


Also a vehicle may tow a van with a higher ATM than its legal limit provided that at the time of towing the van does NOT EXCEED the vehicles towing limit.. That is not fully loaded.

Have had a fair bit of towing experience with a 25ft 3000kg van on and 18 month trip around the country

not sure how you can say I’m factually wrong, when what you wrote supports exactly what I said LOL. You seemed to pickup on me not saying that you can’t TOW more than specified by the vehicle manufacturer, but ignored the rest. Are you secretly a member of the caravaners forum?

one van one one trip. How sweet. Two boat shops in my family, that’s where I did my trade. Been towing since 17 - and until 30 (that’s 29 years ago) towed pretty much every day of my working life. Since moving on, i’ve owned 2 boats, 1 camper, 3 caravans. Last one was a 3500kg bestie behind a Y62 Patrol. So you’re not the only person here who knows about towing.

[doc_777]

Because a WDH correctly applied puts additional stress on the towbar and mountings and Im sure a Passat is not designed to take the stress of a van going through a spoon drain or similar..

Read up about Nisan Xtrails that had the problem and it literally ripped the towbars out of the chassis. Get on the Caravanners Forum and ask them. All the experts are on there and discuss/argue about this very question which gets asked at least twice a week.

Dont go there any more as its groundhog day every day

While I whole heartedly agree with your comments about the physical forces involved with WDH use being massive, I would absolutely disagree with trying to get any useful information out of the caravaners forum. Such an argumentative, nitpicking bunch of self-professed experts who seem to change their opinions based on the wind direction. Trying to get a straight answer there? Might as well try and hold back the tide, or prevent the sun from rising. They are an elitist, self righteous bunch who will heap abuse and derision on anyone who doesn’t fit what they see as the perfect mould. And that mould better be a free-camping grey nomad, because if you like caravan parks or euro vans, or don’t think a 200 series cruiser is the be all and end all of everything in the universe, then you are on a hiding to nothing.

[doc_777]

I'd use a WDH regardless of the van type. It just makes everything ride a whole lot better. (and therefore safer)

OK, who arbitrarily says it must be 10%? Because a percentage is exponential! Which is ridiculous. A 5,000kg trailer (towed by a RAM 3500 for example) doesn't need 500kg worth of downward pressure on the ball to be "safe".

i would ONLY use a WDH if the manufacturer of the towbar supported its use. Only they know what forces the unit is designed to withstand. Seeing as though there is no statement on the VW towbar sticker either way, i’d be contacting VW Australia for an answer. Mind you, at maximum 90kg towball download, I would be unlikely to recommend a WDH in any case - there is no worthwhile towball mass to redistribute.

[Jondalar]

While I whole heartedly agree with your comments about the physical forces involved with WDH use being massive, I would absolutely disagree with trying to get any useful information out of the caravaners forum. Such an argumentative, nitpicking bunch of self-professed experts who seem to change their opinions based on the wind direction. Trying to get a straight answer there? Might as well try and hold back the tide, or prevent the sun from rising. They are an elitist, self righteous bunch who will heap abuse and derision on anyone who doesn’t fit what they see as the perfect mould. And that mould better be a free-camping grey nomad, because if you like caravan parks or euro vans, or don’t think a 200 series cruiser is the be all and end all of everything in the universe, then you are on a hiding to nothing.

Totally agree with you there, I was on there from 2003 for about a decade until I got sick of the bitchy old men (mostly). Of course I've only towed caravans about 40k around Australia so just a beginner.

[doc_777]

<snip> I mean it's fairly basic engineering to get a trailer to be evenly balanced when it's horizontal to the ground (single or double axle) to the point where you shouldn't need to put the jockey wheel down on double axles. Then when you hitch it up, you make the necessary adjustments to the hitch setup to two horizontally. The tow car should be pulling, not holding one end off the ground.

i pulled this bit out because it is certainly not how I was taught to setup a trailer for towing - essentially no weight on the towball, but having the trailer ‘balanced’? No mention at all of mass distribution.

“Balance” and “mass centralisation” are definitely not the same thing - you can have balance with two kids on opposite ends of a see-saw, and that is diametrically opposed to centralised mass.

[doc_777]

Totally agree with you there, I was on there from 2003 for about a decade until I got sick of the bitchy old men (mostly). Of course I've only towed caravans about 40k around Australia so just a beginner.

i reckon the day you decide you know everything and stop learning with towing, is the day you bend a mirror (the whole shebang ends up upside down)

back to the sort of start of this thread though - it’d be nice if VW looked at upping the max towball weight for the Passat, as they did with the Tiguan. Even 120kg would be more friendly than 90kg. That being said, it’s doesnt greatly affect me at the moment - we (very) occasionally tow a box trailer these days. I knew the towball limits when I bought the vehicle - like you, as someone who has towed a few miles, that kind of intro research is one of the things you learn BEFORE buying a vehicle, hey.

[Guest001]

not sure how you can say I’m factually wrong, when what you wrote supports exactly what I said LOL. You seemed to pickup on me not saying that you can’t TOW more than specified by the vehicle manufacturer, but ignored the rest. Are you secretly a member of the caravaners forum?

one van one one trip. How sweet. Two boat shops in my family, that’s where I did my trade. Been towing since 17 - and until 30 (that’s 29 years ago) towed pretty much every day of my working life. Since moving on, i’ve owned 2 boats, 1 camper, 3 caravans. Last one was a 3500kg bestie behind a Y62 Patrol. So you’re not the only person here who knows about towing.

Used to be there but got sick of the same ones bitching about the same thing week in week out. Some however have some sense.

The bit I picked up on is where you say they can only make the bars limits" up to " and that towbar manufacturers can and do make bars for models of vehicle that DO exceed that vehicles limits but you cant exceed them regardless of what the bar maker states. The Toyota 80 series is an example where the bar fits a model that cannot use its capacity.

One Trip Ha ha 50000km of it and a lifetime of driving and towing all sorts of things prior to that as well as driving large vehicles including a Leyland twin steer with a trailer, 12m Buses, several different types of boats including several hundred hours in a Jet Boat and a much larger launch. Also have owned more than one van.

I do think we would agree that you dont need a WDH on a 90kg ball weight and that the forces imposed would do nothing but perhaps harm a Passat

[Rocket36]

WDH distributes weight back to the trailer (whatever it is) and when it's setup correctly there should be no extra up or down pressure on the tow ball... Explain how that increases the forces on the tow vehicle.

[Guest001]

WDH distributes weight back to the trailer (whatever it is) and when it's setup correctly there should be no extra up or down pressure on the tow ball... Explain how that increases the forces on the tow vehicle.

You are almost totally wrong A WDH is to redistribute weight taken off the front wheels of the tug back onto them and a very small part will go back to the vans axle
The action of tightening the WDH straightens the joint and thereby transmits force through the bar and onto the Tug

It therefore puts strain onto the towbar fixings to the tug and it is well know by those who understand that the action of going through creekbeds or even spoon drains has been enough to do damage to the bars or even the towbar fixings to the chassis of the tug.

Also the fitting of a WDH does NOT lighten ballweight as the ballweight of the van is measured disconnected from the tug and is always that weight regardless of whether a WDH is fitted or not.

Suggest you do a bit more research as you are definitely misunderstanding the whole concept of weight distribution and effects of it

[doc_777]

You are almost totally wrong A WDH is to redistribute weight taken off the front wheels of the tug back onto them and a very small part will go back to the vans axle
The action of tightening the WDH straightens the joint and thereby transmits force through the bar and onto the Tug

It therefore puts strain onto the towbar fixings to the tug and it is well know by those who understand that the action of going through creekbeds or even spoon drains has been enough to do damage to the bars or even the towbar fixings to the chassis of the tug.

Also the fitting of a WDH does NOT lighten ballweight as the ballweight of the van is measured disconnected from the tug and is always that weight regardless of whether a WDH is fitted or not.

Suggest you do a bit more research as you are definitely misunderstanding the whole concept of weight distribution and effects of it

What he said.

Hayman Reese say: “When using a Weight Distribution System, the ball weight remains the same, however the load is evenly distributed through the vehicle's chassis to all four wheels.”

Products | Hayman Reese

I reckon they should understand the physics involved - they do build the things after all.

[Rocket36]

Tow Ball weight is not a constant. Basic physics dictates that. The weight on the ball will change simply by moving weight in the trailer forward or backwards.

I'll get into the engineering figures myself I think (engineering background) as from simple observations, what is being said here is contradicting the laws of physics.

Someone who builds something often isn't smart enough to understand it properly, they only think they do.