Touareg R5 and Biodiesel

[bluey]

I meant "of all golf diesels", only the 125kW has DPF. There is a thread I have seen somewhere, perhaps on a biodiesel forum where all cars with DPF were being collected.

[Moonan]

Greg,
In Touaregs at least, the R5 engine was the last to get the DPF, as it was the "oldest" TDI used and started life without one. The V10 had DPF from at least 2005, and the V6 had it from first introduction. I think thet R5's didn't get them in Touaregs until the 2007 model (sold from later 2006). My 2005 R5 TDI Touareg doesn't have one.

Bluey, I think your info was true at one time but is now out of date. All current VW passenger TDIs in Australia (polo, golf, jetta, passat, tiguan, touareg) have DPF.

The issue with DPF and biodiesel is really quite simple:
1. DPF is put there to comply with EURO emmissions rules, and is certified as such.
2. Certification testing was done with current euro-standard petroleum-based diesel, not biodiesel.
Therefore:
3. VW cannot guarantee that their car complies with the euro emmissions standard with biodiesel and therefore to ensure compliance, must put the no-biodiesel sticker on the fuel door.

None of this has anything to do with the engine as such, just with the post-treatment of the exhaust gasses. All diesel engines will run without ill-effect on good quality diesel whether it is derived from petroleum, canola oil, waste cooking oil, sunflower oil, tallow, or the waste from liposuction clinics

[gregozedobe]

All diesel engines will run without ill-effect on good quality diesel whether it is derived from ........, or the waste from liposuction clinics

So if I go for the surgical weight loss option I should tell the doc to keep the (human) fat and I'll be able to run my van for oh, 15 - 20 km or so ? LMAO

[bluey]

All current VW passenger TDIs in Australia (polo, golf, jetta, passat, tiguan, touareg) have DPF.

Where is that documented?? Certainly new TDI models will have DPF to meet new Euro IV regs. VW brochures current today say:
No DPF in:
* Polo TDI MY08 or MY09.
* Golf V TDI 1.9 and 2.0(103kW)
* New Beetle (current spec dates March 0.
* Jetta MY08 TDI (still current).

DPF is in:
* Golf V TDI 2.0(125kW)
* Passat MY09
* Tiguan TDI MY09
* EOS TDI MY09
* Touareg TDI MY09

BTW, I understand the main problem with biofuels and DPF has to do with the potential level of carbon collected resulting in either DPF clogging or the unburned fuel which is periodically sent to the DPF via engine to regenerate the DPF causing DPF temperature problems. Other than that, there are numerous reports of injector clogging and premature failure and expensive repairs from lower grades of biofuels without additives. High grade biodiesel with additives seems to cause less problems.

[Transporter]

Where is that documented?? Certainly new TDI models will have DPF to meet new Euro IV regs. VW brochures current today say:
No DPF in:
* Polo TDI MY08 or MY09.
* Golf V TDI 1.9 and 2.0(103kW)
* New Beetle (current spec dates March 0.
* Jetta MY08 TDI (still current).

DPF is in:
* Golf V TDI 2.0(125kW)
* Passat MY09
* Tiguan TDI MY09
* EOS TDI MY09
* Touareg TDI MY09

BTW, I understand the main problem with biofuels and DPF has to do with the potential level of carbon collected resulting in either DPF clogging or the unburned fuel which is periodically sent to the DPF via engine to regenerate the DPF causing DPF temperature problems. Other than that, there are numerous reports of injector clogging and premature failure and expensive repairs from lower grades of biofuels without additives. High grade biodiesel with additives seems to cause less problems.

Why would you want fewer problems and want to use biodiesel?
I'm sure you meant no problems, so get over the biodiesel issue and use fuel you were recommended.
Biodiesel = less power
higher fuel consumption
needs more servicing (more oil is wasted, fuel filter last 1/2 life)
cost the same as normal diesel
risk to your engine - not tested for long enough in PD TDi (under all conditions)
Why some people want to use biodiesel? It really beats me.

P.S. note that VW brouchure had date on it and also it referes to cars already in production, so it could be a year behind, so it could be your owners manual.

[bluey]

I didn't know about biodiesel until Top Gear made their own. The green alternative and processing used vegetable oil rather than dumping in landfill is superficially attractive.

This site has a fairly thorough treatment of the general issues involved apart from DPF.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html

[Transporter]

I didn't know about biodiesel until Top Gear made their own. The green alternative and processing used vegetable oil rather than dumping in landfill is superficially attractive.

This site has a fairly thorough treatment of the general issues involved apart from DPF.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html

But if you cars life is shorter than it would otherwise be when running on normal diesel that it goes against environment and much more pollution is created by making another car to replaced the one which didn't last and that’s not talking about harmful emissions generated by that car which is running not well because of the biodiesel made it sick and the driver doesn't know it yet. When you start losing power and you take it to mechanic it could be several hundred Km's since. Repair bill goes to $thousands. Think twice if it is worth it.
Car manufacturers are protecting their product by saying no to biodiesel I'm giving them credit for that. Drivers who experiment with their diesel engine by trying biodiesel, they should check negative affects first to see what could be a conferences from that and than make their decision. That is not always a case.
Diesel fuel made today from crude oil has to be used by someone (has to be sold).
Why should one take a risk and use biodiesel when petroleum diesel should be used.
Don’t wrongly assume that biodiesel with higher cetane number will give you more power. The opposite is the truth.
You gaining nothing by using biodiesel.

[greygolf8]

Diesel fuel made today from crude oil has to be used by someone (has to be sold).
Why should one take a risk and use biodiesel when petroleum diesel should be used.
Don’t wrongly assume that biodiesel with higher cetane number will give you more power. The opposite is the truth.
You gaining nothing by using biodiesel.

Do you work for caltex or BP ?

I disagree with your opinion. Biodiesel is widely used in other countries. In Newcastle, Caltex diesel has ~5% biod from Rutherfords. Why would they do that ? Perhaps it has benefits ? Currently dino diesel is the exclusive domain of big oil companies. Bio can be produced by small or medium companies or even home users with the right local resources. I grasp the biod doesnt give the equiv power or range, but it has alternate properties that you ignore. Simply saying that its a huge risk doesnt cut it with me.

My golf doesnt have a dpf and I had no problems with bio at 100% or mixed at 10%. A workmate toured Europe in a rented polo over 2 months using biod when available with no problems.

In the end its a personal decision by the owner, but feel free to contradict me

[Transporter]

Do you work for caltex or BP ?

I disagree with your opinion. Biodiesel is widely used in other countries. In Newcastle, Caltex diesel has ~5% biod from Rutherfords. Why would they do that ? Perhaps it has benefits ? Currently dino diesel is the exclusive domain of big oil companies. Bio can be produced by small or medium companies or even home users with the right local resources. I grasp the biod doesnt give the equiv power or range, but it has alternate properties that you ignore. Simply saying that its a huge risk doesnt cut it with me.

My golf doesnt have a dpf and I had no problems with bio at 100% or mixed at 10%. A workmate toured Europe in a rented polo over 2 months using biod when available with no problems.

In the end its a personal decision by the owner, but feel free to contradict me

No I don't work for any oil company.
I'm diesel mechanic by trade with over 28 years experience.
I'm not going to argue with you, if you are happy to use biodiesel because your workmate used it for 2 months with no problems.
To me it is just a little bit short time for testing.
If Oil Company blends biodiesel to petroleum diesel the quality is controlled, risk is minimum and diesel is made to DIN EN 590.
Biodiesel is not DIN EN 590 and warranty is voided and if you use only biodiesel right from the day one you could be for very expensive repair bill just before the warranty runs out.
Good luck.

P.S. Today's CR diesel engines can run on nano particles of AL, Fe and many other metals with minimum modifications and good results. Idea from 80's but metal filings stuffed up the engine very early.
Anybody for experimenting with different kind of fuel?

[Moonan]

Bluey, I apologise, I made the mistake of believing a salesman... the 1.9 and 103kW 2.0 in Golfs are indeed shown in the current VW Oz website as not having DPF's. And I think it is a current brochure (ie up to date) as it refers to "Pacific" and "edition" not comfortline etc...

MRL T5, I know you are very "anti" biodiesel, and that your position is very common amongst diesel mechanics who have seen or heard of lots of different snake oil made and sold as alternative fuels over many years. But please be careful to state your opinions showing respect to others who might either have a different view, or indeed have done some different research and found some different answers .
I respect your right to your opinions, and what follows is not to try and convince you - but to provide an alternative point of view for readers of this thread - one which is based on my research and experience...
For example, the owners manual for my R5 Touareg is very clear in approving biodiesel, the only stipulation being that it must meet the relevant standard. Indeed they are equally clear in stating the penalty for using substandard biodiesel - the fuel filter will need to be changed more often.
Also, the biodiesel factory at Rutherford was developed and is owned and run, I believe, in association with a large family trucking business. They do not make this stuff to con unwary motorists, they make it to fuel their fleet of trucks that travel millions of km every year. IMHO, they wouldn't do this if it cost them money or damaged or shortened the life of their engines. Every batch of biodiesel made there is independently certified to meet the Australian Biodiesel standard (ComLaw F2006C00556), and exceeds the requirements of the euro-std. The feed stock for this plant is varied. It was mostly canola oil before the drought, and is currently around 95% recycled cooking oil.

As such, I have been happy to run my Touareg R5 on mostly B100 for around 100,000 of the 120,000km on the clock so far. This is only my personal preference, others are free to differ.

cheers,

[Transporter]

Hi Moonan,
I’m not against biodiesel. If I would have the old diesel engine with mechanical fuel injection in old van or car I would happily run it on a home brew biodiesel.
My manual for T5 also says, "ok" to bio diesel (Information in owner’s manuals can be out of date, please refer to VW technical department) but current TDi "not".
So it is beyond the point to argue about it. Manufacturer says "no" and that should be enough. The reason for that could be that there is not enough fuel stations with guaranteed quality of biodiesel or perhaps that everybody's driving conditions are different and you certainly cannot compare commercial company truck with pensioner driving diesel powered car. Car manufacturers have to give warranty usually 3 years or 100,000km and have to cover for different driving situations and servicing intervals.
To me the risk from using biodiesel is there and there is no financial benefit from using bio. It actually cost you more.
But if you have access to cheaper alternative fuel and are willing to take a risk, it is ok with me.
Many people come to read on this forum when they are in doubts with what ever, so why should someone say it is ok to use biodiesel when it is not. The owner’s manual says NO, sticker on the inside of the fuel flap says NO to biodiesel. Who knows better VW who makes the car or Farmers union or who ever who can make biodiesel?
Actually I know that many people just drive the car and don’t read the owner’s manual properly and just google everything and believe in what they see on computer screen or believe to the smooth talkers.

Some link from this site: Example of what can happen when some one use not approved fuel.

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=14982

This is my view and I mean no offence to anybody. It is everyone’s choice what they fill up in the tank.
How ever before you fill up with biodiesel:

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/general/0704dp_diodiesel_vs_your_warranty/index.html

Cheers,
MM

[SLUG36]

As Every One Has Stated Vw Say No To Bio Diesel The Warning Lables On The Car Says No Also. So Dont Use It. They Manufacture The Product And There The Experts Not Us Or Any One Else Who Thinks They No It All. The Fuel Is Crap There Is No Control Over Its Mixture And Its A Recipe For Disater. Untill The G'ment Regulates (thanks Labour Voters) I Would Stay Away And Advise All Of My Customers To Do Also (many Landcruiser Owners I Know Have Asked)

[Greg Roles]

Perhaps, like me, people are growing tired of being shafted by the oil companies. My DPF TDI will end up being run on bio, and I will personally be making sure the quality is consistant. There are ways around any DPF issues if you're prepared to modify. For now, while the car is being paid off and required for work, I'll be sticking to the "rules". I bought the TDI purely with bio in mind. The performance is a bonus!

I couldn't care less even if I'm up for a total rebuild every two years, if it means I no longer contribute to the insane profiteering of dino-diesel, I'll be a happy camper. I also have a secret desire to run a half decent quarter mile time in a bio powered car, just so I can have the glory of it.

Then again for me 2009 is all about solar, wind and alternate energy for all areas of my life, again, getting sick of handing out cash to the big companies .

It's a matter of principle for me.

[Transporter]

Perhaps, like me, people are growing tired of being shafted by the oil companies. My DPF TDI will end up being run on bio, and I will personally be making sure the quality is consistant. There are ways around any DPF issues if you're prepared to modify. For now, while the car is being paid off and required for work, I'll be sticking to the "rules". I bought the TDI purely with bio in mind. The performance is a bonus!

I couldn't care less even if I'm up for a total rebuild every two years, if it means I no longer contribute to the insane profiteering of dino-diesel, I'll be a happy camper. I also have a secret desire to run a half decent quarter mile time in a bio powered car, just so I can have the glory of it.

Then again for me 2009 is all about solar, wind and alternate energy for all areas of my life, again, getting sick of handing out cash to the big companies .

It's a matter of principle for me.

Gee, total rebuild every two years that is a lot of environment wasted.

[Greg Roles]

Dude, unless you've been a lifelong vegetarian like me, get off your high horse about the environment. It's an easily proven fact that the impact of beef cattle is immense compared to anything you can do with a car or emissions. I dare you to have a look into it.

I figure you have a LOT of catching up to do before you can throw stones at this glass house.