Touareg R5 and Biodiesel

[Sunshineviking]

Hi Folks

I've been trying to find out from VW - with little or no success thus far - whether I can run my R5 on Biodiesel of any variety. The dealer just said flatly - NO!

I have a label saying not for Biodiesel in te efiller cap area but cannot find any reference to it in the handbook, apart from it saying that it can't be used.

Has anyone:
a)Tried Biodiesel in theirs yet?
b)Know of any mods that can be done to allow for it?
c)Know if using it will void the warranty?

Cheers

$1.85 a litre is killing the enjoyment somewhat!

[Deedub68]

Hi Folks

I've been trying to find out from VW - with little or no success thus far - whether I can run my R5 on Biodiesel of any variety. The dealer just said flatly - NO!

I have a label saying not for Biodiesel in te efiller cap area but cannot find any reference to it in the handbook, apart from it saying that it can't be used.

Has anyone:
a)Tried Biodiesel in theirs yet?
b)Know of any mods that can be done to allow for it?
c)Know if using it will void the warranty?

Cheers

$1.85 a litre is killing the enjoyment somewhat!

OK, the dealer says...NO.
The filler cap says...NO

That's good enough for me not to use it.

[Mischa]

OK, the dealer says...NO.
The filler cap says...NO

That's good enough for me not to use it.

yes so you dont know enough about it to give advice.

one of the blanket reasons why VW flatly says no to any sentence that has the word biodiesel in it is because the standards of biodiesel in australia are very poor. the regulations governing the quality of biodiesel are very lax. Its the same reason that VW didnt bring any passenger diesel cars into australia in the 80's or 90s (except a few mk3's): the diesel was just crap.

It says the same thing on any VW tdi car on the filler cap and in the manual etc however i know that biodiesel is used in golf tdi's in europe. they sell a "biodiesel kit" which consists of a fuel heater (which we wouldnt need in most parts of aus) and possibly other components which im not sure about. it could be the same situation with the R5; is it common rail or direct injection? you could try calling a vw dealership in the UK to confirm what is included with their biodiesel kits.

i've also loosely been looking at these nifty units for sale in europe which sit in your garage, you pour whatever crappy oil into the top of them, they clean it to a high standard overnight and you fill up your car with teh included bowser in the morning. however as im sure you can tell i know pretty much nothing about them at this stage haha.

oh and warranty is only void if the use of biodiesel was the cause of the fault ie: if you use biodiesel and your seat breaks of course its still under warranty however if you use biodiesel and your injectors die then maybe not hehe.

anyway hopefully theres a few things to think about

GL.

[Moonan]

Hi,
Just my $0.02...
To mostly confirm what Mischa said:
VW say NO for mostly 2 reasons...
1. They say what Mischa said about the standard of biodiesel in Australia. This is actually out-of-date as there IS a standard for biodiesel in Australia, and if the biodiesel meets that standard then it is OK in ANY diesel engine.
2. The reason your filler cap says "not for biodiesel" or similar will be because there is a diesel particle filter (DPF) in your exhaust system. Note that this is not part of the engine, so does not directly affect the ability of your engine to drink biodiesel happily! Why it is a deal-breaker for VW is that the DPF is there to meet Euro IV emission control standards, and the effectiveness of the DPF is only tested and proven in normal diesel, therefore the vehicle is not guarranteed to meet the emissions standard if you use biodiesel. There have been studies made and the best info I have is that the use of biodiesel will not damage the DPF..

OK, having said all that - the R5 engine loves the golden drop (biodiesel). My 2005 model (pre-DPF) has a whole section in the manual on using it, and merely says it should meet the european std for RME (rapeseed methyl esters), and that the penalty for using bad biodiesel is more frequent changes of fuel filter. Also does not recommend the use of B100 when ambient is below (I think) -10 deg C.
The manual also recommends changing fuel filters at 30,000km services not 60,000 IIRC.
Next, the "designed for biodiesel" special pack fro VW Europe consists of a trace heater on the fuel lines and nothing more.
The 2006 record-setting Panamericana road trip (top of Alaska to bottom of South America) was run in Biodiesel-powered R5 Touaregs. Check this out:

http://panamericana2006.com/de/cms/f...p?changelang=4

Finally, My R5 has run over half of its 100000km on either blend or straight biodiesel from the Rutherford plant in NSW.

cheers,

[Sunshineviking]

Sounds good

Thanks M&M

I'll give my local supplier a quick bell - see how we go!

I'll keep you posted !!

cheers

[barefoot]

Ok, you have my attention, Neil, please tell us more, what's your routine, performance etc. and how much is the stuff worth, is it available australia wide etc?

my father (who used to live in Canberra) used to put a tank of biodiesel into his merc every now and then, he says it cleans all the gunks off the engine (and it's collected in the fuel filter), but about a year after the injectors were not working as it should and would have cost him $6k to replace. There's also the issue of whether the gaskets are biodiesel friendly? He also noticed the exhaust note was louder when running on biodiesel.

I'm very interested in not sending anymore of my money to OPEC, but .....
Cheers

[Transporter]

Will the saving from using biodiesel instead of just diesel pay for more frequent fuel filter replacement? ($100.00 or more.)

[GoLfMan]

yeh i want to know more about bio diesel on VW engines! interesting concept

[barefoot]

Will the saving from using biodiesel instead of just diesel pay for more frequent fuel filter replacement? ($100.00 or more.)

I think manufactured bio-diesel actually costs more than mineral diesel (at least in Canberra it does), my father used to put the stuff in believing it cleans out the injectors.
Cheers

[Moonan]

$100 every 30,000km is one cent every 3km or (say) 3 cents per litre in the R5. I can currently get bio in bulk for $1.60, and possibly use 5% more than petro-diesel which is $1.90 or thereabouts... I guess that turns the $1.60 into about $1.72 for the equivalent of a litre of petro-diesel. The sum still works for me.

[TouaregTuff]

[QUOTE=Moonan;178463]Hi,
Just my $0.02...
To mostly confirm what Mischa said:
VW say NO for mostly 2 reasons...
1. They say what Mischa said about the standard of biodiesel in Australia. This is actually out-of-date as there IS a standard for biodiesel in Australia, and if the biodiesel meets that standard then it is OK in ANY diesel engine.
QUOTE]

Really??? Where can I read about this 'standard'? Got a link?

I dont think it exists.

You spent how much on the vehicle and your now willing to risk engine damage to save a few cents?? I dont think so.

[Moonan]

Response to TouaregTuff

One of the features of a forum like this one is that it enables anyone to have and express an opinion, no matter how well (or ill) thought out it is. We should always show respect for this feature, and at the same time show respect for the other users of the forum. Generally this is not a problem here (in my experience) as VW owners are by and large thoughtful people; otherwise they would not have bought a VW!
That being the case, I was a bit disturbed by the apparent tone of the above post – being rather personal in nature in its suggestion that I am not telling the truth (referring to a standard for biodiesel) and also dismissively implying recklessness or at least poor judgement on my behalf in my choice of fuel (with the last two sentences). Now maybe I am being a mite sensitive here, but I have left it a week before responding…

Mr Tuff,
I see that you are a relative newcomer to this forum, as your profile shows that the above post was your second of a total of four contributions you have made. Welcome to VWWatercooled! Please add some details to your signature so everyone can see your “credentials” eg what model of VW you have and with a name like “TouaregTuff” probably what model of Touareg you have. If you don’t have one of these vehicles, no matter, everyone is welcome… you can put “Honda zot” or “H1 Hummer” in your sig if that is what you drive.
Now let’s look at the two points you made in your post.

• About an Australian Standard for Biodiesel. Where can you read about it?
  The easiest thing is to google “Australian Standard Biodiesel”. The very first article referred to if you do this is:Biodiesel fuel quality standard which is a link to the website of the relevant Australian Govt Dept website. From there, it is not hard to find the summary of the chemical and physical properties page http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/biodiesel/summary.html . So the standard exists.
• I “risk engine damage to save a few cents”??
  First let’s look at this thread, and the questions I was answering. I was not advocating the “saving of a few cents” but answering a specific question from an earlier poster about whether the specific price differential between petro-diesel and biodiesel at the time of the comparison would cover VW’s recommendation of more frequent fuel filter changes. Whether you save a few cents or spend a few more on the price of a litre of fuel is a matter of world market conditions etc etc, and if you look at biodiesel the factors include the export price of canola, the drought in inland Australia, and not just the usual ones of international oil speculators, arab dictatorships, the US military, and multinational oil company greed. At the time I wrote my post, the factory gate price for biodiesel locally to me had just gone up from $1.50 to $1.60, and retail diesel fuel was selling for approximately $1.89.
  As for risking engine damage – bad fuel can possibly cause engine damage. This is true of fuel from any source, be it “bio” or “petro” in origin. You can rest assured that diesel engines are able to run on biodiesel without the "bio" damaging them. (If your diesel was made before 1995 you should replace various rubber seals in your fuel system before trying). I assume that “bad” biodiesel can damage an engine, as “bad” petro-diesel probably can. Certainly VW had no problem when my engine was produced in stating that it was suitable for biodiesel, even if their Australian subsidiary was not up with that. As my earlier post said, there is a whole chapter on the use of biodiesel in my owners manual. In fact, there is a fair bit of evidence that biodiesel is probably better for the engine in that it has natural lubrication properties – sadly lacking in the modern “ultra-low sulphur” diesel now sold in Australia. Caltex adds 2% biodiesel to return some lubricity to its diesel.
  Where the “not for biodiesel” status of the newer VW’s comes from is the introduction of the diesel particle filter in the exhaust, as the testing for compliance with newer Euro environmental standards was signed off using petro-diesel.
• On the subject of “risking engine damage” I note that your earlier post includes a positive comment regarding a “dpchip”. I have one of them too. It is not a great risk of damaging the engine, but of the two, I’d say installing a dpchip and cranking it up to full output will put more stress on the engine than using biodiesel.

cheers

[Sunshineviking]

Biodiesel

Thanks Moonan.

Sad reflection on many people's way of using fora...(forums?)

It seems that they see it as an impersonal way of having a rant..

Now if only I could get my hands on some of this stuff on the Sunshine Coast!
The irony is that we have one of the largest biodiesel plants in OZ in Narangba - just outside Brisbane, but they don't seem to want to sell the golden drop to Joe public!


Cheers

[Transporter]

To anybody who wants to save The Earth by using biodiesel.
Did you know that China is using in one day the same amount of diesel fuel as Australia in one year.

Why would VW without a good reason say no to biodiesel in their cars?
To me it is enough to use petroleum diesel.
I could only risk it if I have biodiesel for free. It is simple math:
if you spend $500 per month for diesel its $6,000/year in 5 years if you want to trade your car in you could be looking at buying a new engine and the fuel pump for it. I don't want to speculate but if you bought your biodiesel at half price you might need some thousands of $$$ to pay for the engine repair/replacement.
But I bat you, you didn't get bioiesel for 1/2 price? Did you.

[VW Convert]

With all due respect,

To anybody who wants to save The Earth by using biodiesel. Did you know that China is using in one day the same amount of diesel fuel as Australia in one year..

I don't recall anybody posting in this thread about saving the earth so I don't see the relevance of that point to the discussion.

Why would VW without a good reason say no to biodiesel in their cars?

Moonan gave us his perspective on that issue.

To me it is enough to use petroleum diesel.

As is your prerogative, just as it is Moonan's prerogative to use bio diesel and he has explained his reasoning.

I could only risk it if I have biodiesel for free. It is simple math:
if you spend $500 per month for diesel its $6,000/year in 5 years if you want to trade your car in you could be looking at buying a new engine and the fuel pump for it. I don't want to speculate but if you bought your biodiesel at half price you might need some thousands of $$$ to pay for the engine repair/replacement.
But I bat you, you didn't get bioiesel for 1/2 price? Did you.

Moonan provided a reasoned, rational explanation that bad fuel be it bio or petro would potentially cause expensive engine problems and (rightly or wrongly) that good bio diesel would not cause such problems, in your post you seem to be speculating that good bio diesel will damage the engine but you present no evidence to that effect.


My $0.02

Cheers

George