Touareg R5 and Biodiesel

[Transporter]

With all due respect,



I don't recall anybody posting in this thread about saving the earth so I don't see the relevance of that point to the discussion.



Moonan gave us his perspective on that issue.



As is your prerogative, just as it is Moonan's prerogative to use bio diesel and he has explained his reasoning.



Moonan provided a reasoned, rational explanation that bad fuel be it bio or petro would potentially cause expensive engine problems and (rightly or wrongly) that good bio diesel would not cause such problems, in your post you seem to be speculating that good bio diesel will damage the engine but you present no evidence to that effect.


My $0.02

Cheers

George

Very well,
Here it is: Using biodiesel when the manufacturer says NO BIODIESEL equals to knowingly using bad fuel.
The owner manual in the glove box says use diesel fuel. Further more there is quite a large sticker on the inside of the fuel flap that clearly says ‘No Biodiesel’!
See it as simple instruction from car manufacturer for what fuel to buy when you arrive at fuel station.
Bottom line is:
By buying biodiesel one doesn’t save any money, so why risk the damage to the engine and voiding the warranty.

[VW Convert]

Very well,
Here it is: Using biodiesel when the manufacturer says NO BIODIESEL equals to knowingly using bad fuel.
The owner manual in the glove box says use diesel fuel. Further more there is quite a large sticker on the inside of the fuel flap that clearly says ‘No Biodiesel’!
See it as simple instruction from car manufacturer for what fuel to buy when you arrive at fuel station.
Bottom line is:
By buying biodiesel one doesn’t save any money, so why risk the damage to the engine and voiding the warranty.

That's fair comment, I doubt I would use bio diesel in such circumstances and the OP asked why VW recommended against the use of bio diesel. Moonan simply explained to the OP his interpretation of the reason that VW recommend against the use of bio diesel in the OP's car. I did not read any of the posts as recommending the use of bio diesel where VW specifically recommend against it.

Moonan explained that his own car does not carry that warning and in fact according to his owner's manual VW do permit the use of bio diesel subject to meeting the relevant standard.

The conclusion I would draw from that is that bio diesel per se is not "bad fuel".

Cheers

George

[Moonan]

Thanks for the comments (both pro-and anti)- all opinions are valid...

To MRL T5, I just say (as I said before) that I was honestly answering the questions of the earlier poster, and giving the benefit of my experience and research.
However, to use the blanket statement "bio = bad fuel" concerns me a little. With respect, please read the letter below (badly machine-translated from the german) which summarises VW's position on use of biodiesel.
It lines up with the owners' manual of my 2005 Touareg. As you can intimate from this letter, they would not be so approving if there was a diesel particle filter (newer models). The reason I understand for this change in policy is that mineral diesel was used in the compliance checks for the filter's "burn-off" of pollutants and so there is no certification for the latest "Euro 5" if biodiesel is used. Again, this does not make it inherantly "bad fuel" IMO.
The letter:
Sender: <vwvipservice@VOLKSWAGEN.DE> receiver: date: 12th Okt 2005 10:49 references:

Dear Mr. XXXX thank you very much for your message. Over your interest in the Touareg, we are happy very! Because the Touareg R5 TDI does not control a soot particle filter, it is organic diesel suitable. Please you note however: - the performances can be negligibly lower. - The fuel consumption can be
negligibly higher. - RME is winter suitable until ca. -10°C. - In outside temperatures under -10°C we recommend to refuel winter diesel fuel because the fuel filter can add itself.

For further questions or wishes to the Touareg, we are available you always gladly also by telephone under the
phone number 01802-Touareg (01802- 8682734). With kind regards your Volkswagen Touareg team"

Happy motoring, however you wish to fuel your VW.

PS, the chemist at the Rutherford biodiesel factory said on Monday that they sold >2 million litres in August, and are currently using around 95% recycled cooking oil as their feedstock (So if you want to "save the world" you can do a little bit...). Every batch is certified in a NATA std laboratory to meet the Aust. Std - necessary for them to get a rebate on excise.

[barefoot]

Good stuff Neil, I'm in, do you know how it compares against mineral diesel in terms of energy density? My dad used to think it was more dense, though reading your comparison in terms of fuel consumption perhaps it isn't? But perhaps it's due to optimisation for mineral diesel???

Now I have just have to find somewhere in Brissy that sells the stuff......

[Transporter]

Bio diesel - Bad fuel...

Hi Neil.
Don’t get me wrong I don't want to pick on anybody here.
I didn't say that biodiesel is a bad fuel.
I said that:
Using biodiesel WHEN the manufacturer says NO BIODIESEL equals to knowingly using bad fuel (wrong type of fuel, it is the same, if it caused the mechanical failure).
For some vehicles biodiesel is “ok”.
Anything out of warranty the answer will be: Yes it is “ok” to use biodiesel.
In the time when your Touareg was made the owners manual was saying it was “ok” to use biodiesel the same as my T5 owner's manual, which has the same R5 engine. However when I asked VW Australia in 2005 about using biodiesel I was told NO. My dealer also said NO.
I would be careful, if they say YES to biodiesel once the vehicle is out of warranty.
About the owner's manuals:
Owner manuals are made at the same time as the vehicle and it is not easy to upgrade them. When a new information is available.
Sure the dealers could replace the pages in the manual when you go for the scheduled maintenance. But after the warranty I don't thing that they would do that.
All the reason behind No biodiesel in VW cars could be as simple as that they don't want that the food stock to be used as the fuel for the cars while we still have enough crude oil.
Another reason behind it could be that while your vehicle is under the warranty any problem arising from using the biodiesel would have to be covered by the warranty.
And why they would do that?

MM

[jayjay]

i would have thought that using biodiesel was more of an environmental incentive rather than something monetary.

neil, a little bit off topic, what have you concluded, with using biodiesel in your R5? power, economy? have you tried using it in your mk5 golf?

[Transporter]

When you use biodiesel the engine is actually using more fuel, power is reduced and you have to change the fuel filter more often, so that has some negative impact on environment. And if some third world countries clear up their rainforests (they are already doing that) in order to start biofuel production that would have more negative impact on environment.

MM

[barefoot]

I would say that anything renewable has got to be a better 'long term' bet than something 'not renewable'.

Whilst it's emotional, I feel very much like I'm pulling splinters from my backside everytime I rock up at a BP or Shell, i.e. whacked with a rough sawn 4x2 every time I get near a bowser. I really don't know how OPEC and friends can justify 200% increase in as many years (take tax out, it's 400%), they're in control, they should do something about it, else I'd like to do something I'm in control of, and that is to switch to renewable bio-diesel.

As far as good for the environment or not, biodiesel can be sourced from:

• Algae;
• Recycled cooking oil;
• Tallows;
• Seeds; &
• numerous other sources (not just from plantation).

To get to further reserves of mineral oils, we're looking at:

• Antartica;
• The Great Barrier Reef; & also
• From sand & shale reserves (which btw requires very intensive extraction, and so very bad for the environment).

Then there's the transport of crude oil around the world in leaky ships.....read Exxon Valdez.

Of course it's never black and white, it's all about risk management and so I think there's benefits in supporting the bio-diesel industry, because without them we could all be whacked with rough sawn 4x4 with nine inch nails sticking out of it one day (no doubt some of you think that's already the case, ask a truckie).

Like wise with the decision to use bio on a perfectly good (mineral rated) diesel engine - it's all risk management. I think Neil has done a splendid job with the research, and from a risk assessment point of view, I'd say he has covered his bases (at least for himself and I).
Cheers

[Transporter]

I'm not so sure that anything renewable is always better than what we have now.
I would say that people would do the same as in the past. Everything is converted to dollar first and than they look at the environment.
First rule in production of anything is keeping it simple. It cannot be any more simple than let somebody in the country far away grow crop, convert it to biofuel and than ship it to me. Price is offcourse negotiable and we can negotiate don't we: Buy it for the lowest price and sell it for the highest. Just look at the price of bio diesel it is as expensive as petroleum diesel.
Almost for 30 years the students are playing with solar powered cars and race them.
Car companies are watching and do almost nothing. Reaching back in my memory I think that first production car Toyota Prius was released in 1997(I’m sure that someone will correct me) in Japan and again it took 7 or more years before it went on sale in Australia.
FROM IDEA TO PRODUCTION the solar powered car (without combustion engine-remember someone is already racing it and toying with the ideas for almost 30 years) will take the longest time in history of inventing simply because there is still oil in the ground that oil companies, governments and big business around the world have to make big money on. They don’t give a sh*t about environment to them the profit comes first. To them bio diesel powered car is a big risk many people wouldn't buy the fuel from fuel stations and they would start losing money. The same apply to solar powered car.
The bottom line is if it cost me more to run the car on biodiesel and could possible harm the engine. More resources and minerals would be needed to repair it or replace it if it doesn't last as long as the cars from 80'(go ahead and find out how much water, air and minerals are needed to produce and scrap one car) and I would be paying more now to run it and pay again later to repair it or replace it.
No thanks, I use fuel which gives me more power, better fuel economy and doesn't shorten the engine life.

http://www.getphpbb.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=128&mforum=dutchaussie

MM

[Sunshineviking]

Hi Neil.
I didn't say that biodiesel is a bad fuel.
I said that:
Using biodiesel WHEN the manufacturer says NO BIODIESEL equals to knowingly using bad fuel

So when you mum said - "don't play with that sponge - you'll have someone's eye out" did you believe her?

Vehicle manufacturers tend to err on the side of caution to limit risk...

Meaning that if they can't say yes to every circumstance and have every angle covered on something, it may expose them or their product to adverse publicity. So they say NO!

So when our R5's were shipped to a dodgy country without proper standards for fuel quality(in the eyes of the white coated experts in Wolfsburg). They said - better not allow it or we'll be up for problems later on.

Neil has proved that the "Nicht fur biodiesel" is really rubbish. However no one can force anyone to put BD in their cars - just read the facts and use your own judgement.

Glad it prompted such a lively discussion !!

[Transporter]

So when you mum said - "don't play with that sponge - you'll have someone's eye out" did you believe her?

Vehicle manufacturers tend to err on the side of caution to limit risk...

Meaning that if they can't say yes to every circumstance and have every angle covered on something, it may expose them or their product to adverse publicity. So they say NO!

So when our R5's were shipped to a dodgy country without proper standards for fuel quality(in the eyes of the white coated experts in Wolfsburg). They said - better not allow it or we'll be up for problems later on.

Neil has proved that the "Nicht fur biodiesel" is really rubbish. However no one can force anyone to put BD in their cars - just read the facts and use your own judgement.

Glad it prompted such a lively discussion !!

I'm sure that if the car manufacturers were making cars for little kids they would've made instructions with more explanations in them - meaning that if they say "NO" to something they don't have to explain why is that for every "NO" in the owners manual.

In 2005 when I bought my T5 our diesel was worse than today and my owners manual allowed to use biodiesel (with more frequent fuel filter changes more frequent engine oil changes and warning that engine will produce less power and use a bit more fuel than driving on ordinary diesel.

If, I understand you properly you wouldn't use dodgy diesel fuel made with dodgy standards you would rather use bio diesel, which is in your opinion better for VW engine despite the manufacturer is saying now to biodiesel. Did I miss something?

So, when my mum said don't touch that sponge I stoped for a while and thought before I acted.

I think that everybody is making the decision based on information he/she has and lives with the consequences.

Either way the warranty doesn't cover a bad fuel (petroleum diesel or biodiesel).

MM

[barefoot]

I think there's quite a few issues here, it's not always or generally accepted that:

• 1. bio-diesel = bad fuel;
• 2. mineral = good fuel;
• 3. The R5 TDI engine has been approved for use with biodiesel in parts of Europe and South America;
• 4. The issue appears to come down to the 'risk' VW of XXXX is taking in each country it operates in;
• 5. There is no conclusive evidence either way what part of an engine gets damaged, and by what (with mineral or bio diesel);

So there's lots of uncertainties there ....if one chooses to use it, the risk needs to be managed.

My father had fouled injectors in a benz diesel (using bio-diesel intermittently), the engine was fine, he noticed the car running rough early enough that it (the fuel injection system) was able to be cleaned out, no real long term damage. The mechanic (an injection specialist) that worked on it says he has seen it time and again with bio-diesel (that was over 5 years ago, there are now standards). Like wise anyone who has filled in with shonky mineral diesel will have also notice temporary roughness in engine performance.

It would appear there are now strict standards relating to bio-diesel, I would have thought if it has gone through the rigour of codefied standards, it'd be safe enough for consumers to 'consume'.
Cheers

[Volvo Driver]

It says the same thing on any VW tdi car on the filler cap and in the manual etc however i know that biodiesel is used in golf tdi's in europe. they sell a "biodiesel kit" which consists of a fuel heater (which we wouldnt need in most parts of aus) and possibly other components which im not sure about. it could be the same situation with the R5; is it common rail or direct injection? you could try calling a vw dealership in the UK to confirm what is included with their biodiesel kits.
.

Yes we would, if your running B100 then the car will be hard to start when it's less then 10 degrees overnight, had diesel's for decades in our family and made BD in the 90's and still use it in our Mk3 TDi.

At trade school (I'm an apprentice diesel mechanic) the fuel teachers say it's good to recommend using Biodiesel and such to drivers because it guarantees they will fail (at least on Common rail) at the injector, or the pump on TDi, but no more often then using low sulpher diesel like we have now, so either way your stuffed on a tdi, but our Mk3 tdi has been using biodiesel homemade and from SAFF, for over 150,000km's and is still going fine.

[bluey]

While my Polo manual printed 27/3/2008 says not to use biodiesel, it does say "Some diesel manufacturers blend biodiesel with diesel fuel in compliance with European Standard 590 (EN590). This diesel is suitable for use in your vehicle and will not damage the engine and fuel system."

So if I can find EN590 compliant B5, I can use it without voiding my warranty.

The VW Polo glossy brochure lists fuel as Diesel 49CN. The VW Golf glossy brochure lists fuel as Diesel 51CZ. (I presume this is meant to be 51CN.)

Only the 125kW Golf TDI has a DPF. Anyone know why a Golf needs a higher CN diesel than a Polo with the same engine or is just a bit of marketing dept simplification?

[gregozedobe]

Only the 125kW Golf TDI has a DPF.

My R5 2.5l PD TDI definitely has a PDF. So far (38,000Km) I've had zero problems with the PDF (but it does mostly highway cruising, very little driving in heavy traffic).