ESP & Haldex

[clip]

Two slightly different things, but what are your thoughts on the ESP - especially when hitting the twisties? I turn mine off, but interested in your thoughts especially if anyone's running an alt Haldex controller.

I'm thinking the next upgrade after the sus might just be that after all.

[Tigga1]

Two slightly different things, but what are your thoughts on the ESP - especially when hitting the twisties? I turn mine off, but interested in your thoughts especially if anyone's running an alt Haldex controller.

I'm thinking the next upgrade after the sus might just be that after all.

clip, am at the Gold Coast right now, will try and see Guy next week.
interested in Haldex controller and chip, and torque arm thingy.
what is the sus you refer to above??
Tigga

[clip]

what is the sus you refer to above??
Tigga

H&R springs, & maybe sway bars Tigga.

You thinking of getting the remap?

[qsilverza]

Clip, ESP and Haldex work together even with an aftermarket HALDEX controller. You only turn ESP off if you feel confident that you don't require the aid, sometimes it can become intrusive.

[Tigga1]

H&R springs, & maybe sway bars Tigga.

You thinking of getting the remap?

yep, hopefully this week...

[gerhard]

I'm struggling to come to grips with why anyone would turn ESP off on public roads, "especially in the twisties".

I was under the impression it is a significant safety aid; AWD similarly, is a significant safety aid.

Why not disconnect AWD as well?

[Arctra]

I'm struggling to come to grips with why anyone would turn ESP off on public roads, "especially in the twisties".

I was under the impression it is a significant safety aid; AWD similarly, is a significant safety aid.

Why not disconnect AWD as well?

I couldn't agree with you more. From what I've seen and read, the ESP is infinitely quicker reacting that human reactions, and 99% of the time a lot more precise and reliable than humans. There will not doubt be a very small portion of drivers that are capable of outperforming ESP in a small percentage of circumstances, and more power to them, but for the vast majority of drivers the ESP is a godsend.

With the Tiguan it appears the ESP is a bit of a danger when you are trying to do some proper off-roading, as jjj on the mytiguan forums has discovered. But as for public roads, unless you are the Stig, an extremely competent and confident driver, or simply don't mind scribbling your car and life, I don't see why you'd even consider turning off ESP.

At the end of the day I have more faith in German engineering and the army of clever geeks that have come up with the safety electronics (that have been tested to the n'th degree on ridiculous numbers of different and extreme driving conditions) than I do in my own driving abilities.

[NZTiguan]

X2 for me !!

[Sharkie]

The Haldex is a good upgrade. It transforms the way it delivers power .... I'm planning on doing it.

On the ESP though ..... leave it on. I only ever turned my GTI's off at the track and upon a really spirited launch.

I've done a few skidpan days and the ESP is absolutely awesome. It will save your life.

Unless you're on a race track or doing serious off-roading, I'd be surprised if it interfered with the day to day driving at all. That said, I've yet to drive a Tiguan in real anger so it may actually be a bit annoying.

A constantly flickering ESP light is something you have to live with in a FWD chipped VW turbo....... not sure if an AWD has the same issues?

[High-Fidelity]

I'm struggling to come to grips with why anyone would turn ESP off on public roads, "especially in the twisties".

I was under the impression it is a significant safety aid; AWD similarly, is a significant safety aid.

Why not disconnect AWD as well?

Many ESP systems are intrusive as you get closer to the limits of the chassis and the person behind the wheel. ESP systems are often made for the lowest common denominator and therefore kick in a bit earlier than an enthusiast might like and/or enjoy.

The grey matter is by far the biggest safety aid, yet many people have no trouble turning that off when seated behind the wheel of 1.5-2 ton doing 100kph down the highway. ESP is engineered precisely for these people.

In the 4.5 thousand k's I've done in my Tiguan, I've yet to see a flashing ESP light, but I've outgrown my boy racer phase (and haven't hit middle aged crisis yet!), so I can't comment on how intrusive the Tiguan's ESP is. Many a car I've driven is very intrusive though, and I'm more than happy to turn it off when I'm getting stuck into a bit of spirited driving.

[gerhard]

Many ESP systems are intrusive as you get closer to the limits of the chassis and the person behind the wheel. ESP systems are often made for the lowest common denominator and therefore kick in a bit earlier than an enthusiast might like and/or enjoy.

The grey matter is by far the biggest safety aid, yet many people have no trouble turning that off when seated behind the wheel of 1.5-2 ton doing 100kph down the highway. ESP is engineered precisely for these people.

In the 4.5 thousand k's I've done in my Tiguan, I've yet to see a flashing ESP light, but I've outgrown my boy racer phase (and haven't hit middle aged crisis yet!), so I can't comment on how intrusive the Tiguan's ESP is. Many a car I've driven is very intrusive though, and I'm more than happy to turn it off when I'm getting stuck into a bit of spirited driving.

Many ESP systems are intrusive as you get closer to the limits of the chassis. That's what they're supposed to do

ESP is not engineered for numnuts, it's engineered for all, despite your assertion to the contrary.

If we believed your point of view, we'd be refuting Mercedes' point of view, which is that this invention is so damn good the technology should be released into the public domain for the good of all. I back the MB view, and the view of every other car maker that has adopted ESP.

That leaves you way out in the cold with your view. Even Shumi used traction control, because he knows technology is better than no technology. And I daresay he's a better car controller than you.

[High-Fidelity]

Many ESP systems are intrusive as you get closer to the limits of the chassis. That's what they're supposed to do

ESP is not engineered for numnuts, it's engineered for all, despite your assertion to the contrary.

If we believed your point of view, we'd be refuting Mercedes' point of view, which is that this invention is so damn good the technology should be released into the public domain for the good of all. I back the MB view, and the view of every other car maker that has adopted ESP.

Back up there speedy. Are you always this much of an ass when you encounter someone with an opinion that differs to yours?

I said when you get closer to the limits, not when you cross them. Perhaps the margin of safety built in to the ESP system is higher than a particular person wants? Maybe I'm more comfortable with a 10% margin, but for a multitude of reasons the manufacturer thought that a 20% margin was in their best interests. And despite what you may believe, a manufacturer's best interests don't always align perfectly with a driver's best interests.

ESP definitely is engineered for "numnuts", as you so succinctly put it. If people drove within the limits of the chassis, road, tyres and their own ability, there'd be no need for it. Unfortunately, it turns out that people can act a bit silly at times and that they don't always know best, so ESP can be a real life saver.

You must have missed the bit where you invited an opinion that wasn't your own by stating "I'm struggling to come to grips with why anyone would turn ESP off on public roads...".

That leaves you way out in the cold with your view. Even Shumi used traction control, because he knows technology is better than no technology. And I daresay he's a better car controller than you.

Nice try to marginalise what I've said, comparing my ability to a driver who fairly recently was at the peak of his sport. I daresay that I'm allowed to have my own opinion, and that just because I don't drive around a race track in an F1 car doesn't make that opinion any less valid. It also sounds like I'm not "way out in the cold", since you've obviously heard the same opinion before.

BTW, not once have I turned ESP off on the Tiguan. On other cars I have, because it's more fun with it off. And despite your warnings, I seem to still be alive.

Go troll somewhere else.

[Transporter]

Wouldn't you hate it, if you were involved in a bad accident after you turned the ESP off and crash investigator would find it out?

Leave it on all the time and turn it off when you’re at the racetrack.

Just my 2c.

[gerhard]

Back up there speedy. Are you always this much of an ass when you encounter someone with an opinion that differs to yours?

I said when you get closer to the limits, not when you cross them. Perhaps the margin of safety built in to the ESP system is higher than a particular person wants? Maybe I'm more comfortable with a 10% margin, but for a multitude of reasons the manufacturer thought that a 20% margin was in their best interests. And despite what you may believe, a manufacturer's best interests don't always align perfectly with a driver's best interests.

ESP definitely is engineered for "numnuts", as you so succinctly put it. If people drove within the limits of the chassis, road, tyres and their own ability, there'd be no need for it. Unfortunately, it turns out that people can act a bit silly at times and that they don't always know best, so ESP can be a real life saver.

You must have missed the bit where you invited an opinion that wasn't your own by stating "I'm struggling to come to grips with why anyone would turn ESP off on public roads...".




Nice try to marginalise what I've said, comparing my ability to a driver who fairly recently was at the peak of his sport. I daresay that I'm allowed to have my own opinion, and that just because I don't drive around a race track in an F1 car doesn't make that opinion any less valid. It also sounds like I'm not "way out in the cold", since you've obviously heard the same opinion before.

BTW, not once have I turned ESP off on the Tiguan. On other cars I have, because it's more fun with it off. And despite your warnings, I seem to still be alive.

Go troll somewhere else.

Err - it was you that said ESP was for inadequate drivers, or words to that effect. I merely coined the word numnut to describe that condition.

Then you stated you are a far better driver than those who need ESP. Of course we all know that you have such superior skills that you can overcome an unexpected codition that would kill the rest of us.

But I'm struggling to come to grips with why anyone would turn ESP off on public roads.

Your story doesn't change that or answer that.

Feel free to start a thread describing your unique abilities.

[High-Fidelity]

Err - it was you that said ESP was for inadequate drivers, or words to that effect. I merely coined the word numnut to describe that condition.

I said lowest common denominator and those that disengage their brain whilst driving. Not quite the same as "numnut", is it? I stand by my statement that if you're driving within the limits of the chassis, road, tyres and your own ability, then ESP isn't needed. As it turns out though, doing all that is easier said than done, because ESP is definitely life saving technology.

Then you stated you are a far better driver than those who need ESP. Of course we all know that you have such superior skills that you can overcome an unexpected codition that would kill the rest of us.

Can you point out where I said I'm a far better driver than those that need ESP? Anyone who "needs" ESP should modify their driving. ESP shouldn't be getting involved in everyday driving. Are you one of those people who thinks ABS makes a difference in normal braking conditions?

But I'm struggling to come to grips with why anyone would turn ESP off on public roads.

I've given you a reason, just because you don't think it's valid doesn't make it any less of a reason.

There's a reason why I don't turn ESP off every time I get into the car. It's obviously a beneficial technology in the majority of cases and not once have I stated otherwise. There are times however, where it can get in the way of a bit of fun. As I said earlier, I don't know how intrusive it is on the Tiguan, as I've never even seen the ESP light flash and the ESP has always been turned on.

Seems to me like you're being deliberately obtuse and refusing to acknowledge an opinion different to yours. Feel free to leave ESP on in your own car.