Rear Tyres Scrubbing/Haldex Engaging in First Gear

[spacemannz]

I noticed a bit of a sound similar to what you describe tigger73 - in a parking building yesterday after driving in the torrential rain we had on Friday in Sydney. I’d actually pulled a couple of very hard takeoffs at the lights (0-60kph) to test the Haldex (Which was amazing!) and wonder if it remained engaged for the remainder of a short trip.
I left the parking building 10min later and no sound.
This is the same parking building I frequent daily and never noticed it before. It was the first time driving properly hard in the wet and forcing the Haldex to work.
I noticed there is coding to set the Haldex parameters - it might be worth checking those and see if the default (quiet) is not set for some reason.

As another idea; I think the esp program grabs the brakes on the inside wheels when cornering to assist with stability and to turn tighter. Is that correct? Maybe that’s come into play at parking speeds?

[cameleon72]

Hi Spacemannz , just my advice don't even think in Haldex coding set from default normal to quite, you will lose so much rear power that car will fill so sluggish .
I test this when bought car and find those clunking noise , and find same Haldex coding option . Quiet option was looking very promising which i think should fix my car clunking noise to be ''quiet'' he he was so wrong.
So I set on that quiet mode and keep driving forgetting even that I changed . The clunking / rattle noise remained the same but my car was so sluggish! Playing with other coding experimenting didn't know that was the reason car is sluggish. At that time I was so disappointed in 132tsi engine performance especially going up to hill, But after week or 2 I remembered that I changed Haldex coding and I put back to normal and even gone after testing loud mode.
I notice big pull improvement going from standard but not any more noise than standard .So my preferred settings is the last one.

[tigger73]

Maybe I am wrong, but I have feeling that you will receive same response as me and the other owners with similar issue: sorry but nothing wrong with your car, is just 'characteristic of VW transmission drive''.

Well as you predicted the dealer couldn't find anything wrong with my car and said it behaving normally and couldn't fault it.

I did run some logs on the car over the weekend, however although I could see the Haldex engaging on take-off I think I'll have to run some more to log the steering angle sensor vs. axle speed delta. The other challenge I have is the VCDS cable I have doesn't support high speed logging (turbo mode) so the number of parameters and speed is limited making the resolution less than ideal as most of this happens in the first second or two of take-off.

I'm going to have an independent mechanic have a quick look/drive and see what he thinks but I'll need to have some more firm data / professional opinion that something does need to be rectified to take it back to VW. The local dealer haven't closed the door but have said I'll need to demonstrate the issue for them to be able take it any further.

To their credit they did do some searching on related issues and brought up a TPI 2017165/16 relating to squeaking/creaking noises on full lock but this was more about the ribs of the outer bellows on the steering touching resulting in squeaking/creaking noises and nothing to do with Haldex/diff lock of wheels while turning.

[FastMitch]

Well as you predicted the dealer couldn't find anything wrong with my car and said it behaving normally and couldn't fault it.

That is a concern.

VW needs to move to an 8 Speed TC and drop these rubbish dual clutch. They sound more unreliable than a rubber band CVT.

Even BMW is dropping the Dual Clutch nonsense.

BMW M to dump dual-clutches, go auto-only within a decade

New 8-speed and 10-speed Automatic Transmissions (Direct Shift-8AT & Direct Shift-10AT) | TOYOTA Global Newsroom

[tigger73]

That is a concern.

VW needs to move to an 8 Speed TC and drop these rubbish dual clutch. They sound more unreliable than a rubber band CVT.

Even BMW is dropping the Dual Clutch nonsense.

BMW M to dump dual-clutches, go auto-only within a decade

New 8-speed and 10-speed Automatic Transmissions (Direct Shift-8AT & Direct Shift-10AT) | TOYOTA Global Newsroom

Except that this is not a DSG/dual clutch issue. The 7 speed DQ500 DSG in the Tiguan (since mid-2010) has been a very reliable unit. I have no problems with it apart from maybe not being a massive fan of the factory shift programming.

I think VW has some reasonably good dual clutch transmissions now. The problem is always when you try and make them cheaper and end up becoming less reliable. This is the challenge with making a reliable dual clutch transmission for entry level cars. VW is not the only manufacturer that has had problems at this end of the market.

However back on topic, the issue I've raised in this thread (I believe) is to do with the AWD system engaging during take-off. It's not so much a problem as such with engaging the rear wheels, however it appears that they are being driven in synchronisation. Meaning when you turn a corner it sounds like there's some gripping/slip of the rear tyres on the road.

I'll look to maybe do some more logging to see if I can observe/catch the problem in logging but I suspect this may be a challenge. Otherwise my other option is to set up a camera and try and see if I can record/observe anything from the outside.

[spacemannz]

Hi Spacemannz , just my advice don't even think in Haldex coding set from default normal to quite, you will lose so much rear power that car will fill so sluggish

Thanks. Nope, I haven’t and won’t be touching it

[spacemannz]

Maybe a dumb question, so please don’t flame me for asking it, but could it be an alignment issue if the tyres are scrubbing/crabbing?

[tigger73]

Maybe a dumb question, so please don’t flame me for asking it, but could it be an alignment issue if the tyres are scrubbing/crabbing?

No dumb question. The service advisor did say that you could get some shudder through the steering wheel at full lock and that this was "normal".

However this is happening even under partial lock - entering roads or turning at an intersection. Also it only ever happens in first gear/from a standing start. If you're already rolling, the DSG will be in second gear and then it never happens. So I'm kind of discounting a potential alignment issue as it would happen whichever gear you're in. If you're rolling into a round-about it doesn't happen.

[Ozsko]

Unfortunately the service departments reaction is not unusual and as I said before VW world wide are not admitting anything to anyone. I haven't got this particular issue and it occurs to me as I type this that there might be a good reason for that. My car has the smaller wheels not being an R line so the tyres have more compliance and I wonder if this is a factor. My car if it is hot can sometimes suffer from what I think is drive line shunt when slowing down when it appears to hold 3rd gear too long but I have never pursued it because it is intermittent and so minor it is hardly worth the trouble though I have made a formal complaint for future reference. I have seen a theory advanced that the dual clutch flywheel can cause issues and have the same symptoms as my car has but up to now I know of no Tiguan that has been pulled apart to pursue these drive line problems but there are a lot of YT videos out there. Certainly all these issues have been widely discussed on the British Tiguan forums with not a single person having any success in resolving the problems their car has because VW do not want to know.

[cameleon72]

Hi tigger73
Yes at full lock steering I have also notice what you describe as some shudder through the steering wheel at full lock ,like some kind very strange resistance shudder doing full turn on street ,you need to hold very tide steering wheel like to fight to eliminate or reduce resistance it just dont seems normal ,at last like not any car I had before ,my Audi q3 is similar weight and I don't have any resistance shudder fight at steering full lock turn.
My current wheels on tiguan are 18 inch from audi sline very rigid light wheelset (for comparison rline 20 suzuka is 30kg with tyre and my 18 inch with conti tire weight only 21.7kg )and I did have same issue with factory 17 inch Tulsa , checked many time balance is perfect . Soemething fill not right in relation suspension front (specialy left side maybe because more weight as dsg is on left) to drive shaft steering rack .I hope someone will find and address this.

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

No dumb question. The service advisor did say that you could get some shudder through the steering wheel at full lock and that this was "normal".

However this is happening even under partial lock - entering roads or turning at an intersection. Also it only ever happens in first gear/from a standing start. If you're already rolling, the DSG will be in second gear and then it never happens. So I'm kind of discounting a potential alignment issue as it would happen whichever gear you're in. If you're rolling into a round-about it doesn't happen.

Happens in 2nd too, I can get it make the noise in 1st/2nd haven't had enough road/space to plant it on 3rd.
To be honest, the noise it makes isn't too far off an EVO Lancer when you plant it into corners.

I assume it's due to different wheel speeds front vs. rear axle

Also planning to take the Tiguan to Wakefield Park next month or so will report back on all the noises it makes.

[Umai Naa!!]

It's odd that it seems to be engaging the Haldex proactively from a standstill.

I'd have thought that it would perhaps only do this, if launch control was active, or an offroad mode was selected.

My experience with them is that they're a passive system until needed.

I've only skimmed over the bulk of the thread, but do the logs show that the pump is being activated while the symptoms are occurring? I wonder if a basic bedding-in of the friction plates would change its behaviour?

[Dose Pipe Sutututu]

It's odd that it seems to be engaging the Haldex proactively from a standstill.

I'd have thought that it would perhaps only do this, if launch control was active, or an offroad mode was selected.

My experience with them is that they're a passive system until needed.

I've only skimmed over the bulk of the thread, but do the logs show that the pump is being activated while the symptoms are occurring? I wonder if a basic bedding-in of the friction plates would change its behaviour?

If you're gentle off the line it will be quiet, if you're mashing the pedal off the line then you'll feel it kick in. It nearly feels it is TPS activated, well in these cars I could refer to that as PPS lol (DBW setup).

Happens in any mode actually.

I've ordered a OBD11 Pro kit, will log and report back when I have some time. Have 3x cars (Japanese S13 Silvia **** boxes) I need to dyno tune in the next two weeks and setup after hours.

[Ozsko]

There has got to be a difference between the cars it happens in and those it does not and equipment spec would have to be the obvious thing to look at.

[tigger73]

Ok just a quick update.

I went for a quick drive with my independent mechanic and he said there's definitely something going on with the Haldex at low speed in 1st gear. We drove around on some smooth concrete and you can see the tyre marks as the outside wheel is gripping at the surface. It does same thing in snow mode as well as off-road mode (more severe).

I really believe this is the way it has come from the factory (not some kind of mechanical fault with the car). I'll bring it back up with VW dealer service to see if they can push it through as a technical query/clarification. My main concerns are increased tyre wear (best case) or damage to the transfer case/drivetrain (worst case).

My mechanic did say he didn't think it was a major issue and that there's clearly a lot of cars running around like it with no problems, however he said it definitely doesn't happen in Mk7 Golf R. When I've got some time I'll take it back to the dealer and demonstrate the issue to the service tech which they said was the next step.