Golf 40th vs Golf R

[SevenR]

I have a casual interest. To be honest I could only skim read most of your input into this thread so maybe you have already answered my question - but I thought you said traction & weight transfer are not an issue with the GTI 40 year model (at stock power levels anyway) - so that cant be the reason could it?
As far as the handling of the R on my local race track goes, I am yet to find out anytime soon, but I do know my old porsche by design has about the highest polar moment of inertia you can have between 4 wheels & that could be rotated very easily under trail braking - I would expect the R to be more than capable for my needs due to its lower value in this area.

GTI or R - they both offer a lot so just get what you prefer - Having never read anything about the GTI 40 year model before, I'm just surprised its so slow & was wondering why.

[ringo]

I have a casual interest. To be honest I could only skim read most of your input into this thread so maybe you have already answered my question - but I thought you said traction & weight transfer are not an issue with the GTI 40 year model (at stock power levels anyway) - so that cant be the reason could it?
As far as the handling of the R on my local race track goes, I am yet to find out anytime soon, but I do know my old porsche by design has about the highest polar moment of inertia you can have between 4 wheels & that could be rotated very easily under trail braking - I would expect the R to be more than capable for my needs due to its lower value in this area.

Yes I said that on the context of cornering performance and overall driving behaviour. It's true that the Clubsport enjoys less and smoother weight transfer and that it can put its power down very well during corners. A drag race is a very different and special story as it deals with maximum inertia from zero speed.

It is all about max traction and how the axles are being loaded. In such a situation any FWD is in the worst position against RWD or AWD because neither can it have 4 wheel traction (ideal case) or at least load as quickly its driven wheels as the RWD. For similar power/weight ratios it usually is AWD > RWD > FWD, it always has been so the R being quicker on a 0-60 is far from being big news.

Once rolling and sticking on the road though it is all about power to weight and the CS will accelerate just as quickly from 40kph up to max speed as the R. In fact, on over-boost it has a better power-to-weight ratio (290/1.370 vs 300/1.470) so it might even be quicker in a real-road speed situation (I don't usually consider traffic light racing as such). Same for cornering: the dynamics are much less upset due to the less weight and stiffer suspension.

I didn't get your point about the polar inertia. If I remember correctly from my 4th semester the larger the polar moment, the harder it is for the body to twist. You can be sure though that the R will be the less prone to over-steer or twist uncontrollably, again it's all about which are the driven wheels.

[ringo]

GTI or R - they both offer a lot so just get what you prefer - Having never read anything about the GTI 40 year model before, I'm just surprised its so slow & was wondering why.

See my reply above ^ It is not slow at all (in fact some have managed 5.7" with a stock CS) it is very normal because of the driving mechanics. Of-course everyone should get what he prefers, just good to know which does what better.

Just so you have a reference, based on my experience from several tuned FWD's not even a 400bhp GTI could get to 100km/h launch quicker than 5.0" (same as an R). The FWD takes its toll at launch. What does that say? Well that If drag-racing is your thing any FWD should be avoided. That's as much useful info as you can deduct from such a test.

A 0-60 is just that. It does not say anything about cornering performance or road-feedback, or agility where the R falls short compared to any track-focused FWD. It is not even representative of rolling acceleration (most important for everyday driving), in fact it can be quite misleading as whenever the launching advantage is taken out of the equation, times are very different. See how for example a FWD Leon Cupra is 1" slower than an R in 0-60, yet quicker in a rolling 100-200km/h run (because better power/weight). When you come across someone wanting to "play" with you on a highway, would you ask him to come to a standstill then race with a 3-2-1 countdown or just floor it? I think it's obvious...

[VRJ]

Gotta say, this is one of the most enjoyable thread reading I've had on this or any other forum!

[Dutch77]

Yeah it's true that I completely disagree but there's nothing wrong with that! On the rear wing aspect, looking at the competition I think it's as subtle as it can be, don't forget in the end there has to be something that directs the air flow beneficially to the car's aerodynamics otherwise there is no point in sticking anything just for show. And it is a track-focused car after-all, it's not meant to be blending in completely un-noticed. Still it does the job as you'd expect from a Golf: different, yet with the minimal provocation possible. Every other competitor has a far more dramatic look, to me the Clubsport looks and feels the classiest car in the track-focused hatch range (the R is not in that list). Mitsubishi EVO, Civic Type-R, A45 AMG, Focus RS, these cars have huge wings, the Clubsport doesn't:

Yeah - I was wrong. I've had another look this morning and actually it's nowhere near as bad as I had in my head. I'll give a pass to the wing - I much prefer that look than some of the more winged designs the aftermarket uses.

And absolutely no arguments it is still a cleaner classier car than the opposition - the only one of those that is ok is the A45 without the wing.. I'm not sure if that's now on all new models or still part of some package though, I'm not up to speed with the A45. As someone who decided to step away from a hatch on their last purchase I get to include the M2 or M235i into that mix as well (looks wise) and I think BMW/M have been getting the mix right of late.

I will reserve my criticism of the styling to the front bar - I don't care if it's effective, it looks out of place (non-fixable) and the awful Brescia wheels (not an issue overseas, and very fixable here!). I will not be convinced otherwise on this area.

I do understand though that isn't the point of the CS and agree - if the car is being bought purely for driver enjoyment (but is still easy as a daily) then it makes a compelling case. Obviously I have different criteria and happily admit I am not chasing the last percentage points of speed/enjoyment as I rarely get an opportunity (and realistically lack the knowledge/skill of extracting those last points as well) which is why I went a different route last time (that and the fact when in Melbourne we went back to one car and had a bigger budget!).

[Bassik]

Gotta say, this is one of the most enjoyable thread reading I've had on this or any other forum!

Yeah I know, ringo keeping it alive for the CS lol.


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[AdamD]

Current S3/RS3 are (once again) falling short on dynamics with the RS3 being actually the worst (heavy engine just amplifies the understeer tendency) of the group. The R has different springs, dampers and steering rack and therefore drives better than both of them. The moaning threads on Audi forums from driver enthusiasts about the S3/RS3's handling are/were quite regular.

I'm not sure what Audi forums you're reading, but the ones I am are generally pretty glowing - at least regarding the S3 if not the RS3 to the same extent. Not all driving enthusiasts want to track their car, and most need it to do more than glow for the 0.5% of the time it's actually being driven beyond 8/10ths on a mountain road. That's where a more pliable set of dynamic traits come into their own, particularly like those of the S3. If driving involvement and ultimate flexibility were your number 1 priority you'd buy a new Focus RS, or else a RenaultSport Megane RS275 R, which are both more raw and undiluted than any current VAG offering.

If, however, you're like the vast majority who are looking for a car that is to some extent a compromise (of course every road-legal car is a compromise, but VAG cars generally a little more so than others), then you'll want to pick a point on the sliding scale from more to less extreme. Clubsport, R, S3... they're all on that scale and they're all excellent choices, that excel at their given brief and are virtually ideal for a subset of the market.

To be honest I think the general banter/discussion is pointless beyond a certain level - only a good, long drive over specific roads and at a good pace will allow you to really assess the merits of each car we're discussing, and decide where on that sliding scale your appetite for compromise lies (and everyone is different). Even if you don't do this I doubt most people would be dissatisfied with any of these choices (CS, R, S3, RS3) in the real world.

[tigger73]

I think it comes down to this:

If you want to win the traffic lights GP or have better traction in the wet get the R.

If you want a more engaging drive at 9/10 around a track then the Ed40 probably edges out the R.

Either way they're both great packages.


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[stark27]

My partner is happy though coz now she wants the new Tiguan R Line.

I found this amusing because I ordered the GTI40 but also found out about the new Tiguan and told the guys I want the option of putting the order on hold until I see a price for the Tiguan R Line.

[stark27]

You'll enjoy hearing that we saw a brand new white R-Line Tiguan the other day on the road

Are you sure? Pricing is not out until next week and I have not seen one in a dealership yet.

[Bassik]

I found this amusing because I ordered the GTI40 but also found out about the new Tiguan and told the guys I want the option of putting the order on hold until I see a price for the Tiguan R Line.

Funny you say this because the $500 deposit that I lost from the CS is now sitting on a Tiguan but obviously subject to pricing. This will be the deal or no deal for me. That Tiguan is going to be nice.


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[ringo]

I'm not sure what Audi forums you're reading, but the ones I am are generally pretty glowing - at least regarding the S3 if not the RS3 to the same extent. Not all driving enthusiasts want to track their car, and most need it to do more than glow for the 0.5% of the time it's actually being driven beyond 8/10ths on a mountain road. That's where a more pliable set of dynamic traits come into their own, particularly like those of the S3. If driving involvement and ultimate flexibility were your number 1 priority you'd buy a new Focus RS, or else a RenaultSport Megane RS275 R, which are both more raw and undiluted than any current VAG offering.

If, however, you're like the vast majority who are looking for a car that is to some extent a compromise (of course every road-legal car is a compromise, but VAG cars generally a little more so than others), then you'll want to pick a point on the sliding scale from more to less extreme. Clubsport, R, S3... they're all on that scale and they're all excellent choices, that excel at their given brief and are virtually ideal for a subset of the market.

To be honest I think the general banter/discussion is pointless beyond a certain level - only a good, long drive over specific roads and at a good pace will allow you to really assess the merits of each car we're discussing, and decide where on that sliding scale your appetite for compromise lies (and everyone is different). Even if you don't do this I doubt most people would be dissatisfied with any of these choices (CS, R, S3, RS3) in the real world.

Quite a few. Audi-sport.net is the last one I remember frequenting from when I was considering an S3. Turned out, for the type of use I had in mind it would not be the most satisfying choice. I was in fact surprised by the amount of S3 owners that were admitting it's not really up there with the best in terms of dynamics and worse in terms of handling than the (quite similar) Golf R. And there were a few very technical and meaningful discussions as to why it doesn't manage that. You don't get owners to admit something like that very often.

That came of-course from fellow enthusiasts that believed the S3 being and S model it would be actually tuned with a driver's approach in mind, until they discovered otherwise and tried to tackle the problem with either suspension upgrades or selling and moving on. The majority surely loved it no doubt. And I don't claim it's a bad car (as a whole) either. I actually loved the sedan look more than anything, and the styling is classy. Also in the Autobahn it will just eat miles without it (or you) sweating at all. It's just less of a driver's car than most of its competitors and when that is one of your top requirements it may be a problem.

I think I said earlier I was after a family car that I can occasionally enjoy on a track or twisty road without having to start all over again with suspension, brakes, engine tuning as in my past cars. As a result a Megane was totally out of the question and the Focus, apart from that tricky AWD is not really a game changer. It's far too heavy, and in tests so far it's hasn't been achieving the performance of a 350bhp car, more like a 300bhp one. Plus its boot was a joke for a 4-seater and the looks and interior not very convincing to say the least.

It's all about a high all-round score (a compromise as you say), and the Clubsport seemed to be making the highest one in terms of performance, looks, build quality, daily driveability. That is for the requirements I had, and which might be totally different than someone else's.

I found this amusing because I ordered the GTI40 but also found out about the new Tiguan and told the guys I want the option of putting the order on hold until I see a price for the Tiguan R Line.

You know this doesn't make sense right? "I'll either get a stiffer, focused, performance FWD hot-hatch or a classy SUV"?? I could understand R wagon vs Tiguan but a CS should be a far more conscious choice in the first place. I only say that because almost none of the things that would make you happy in a Tiguan (super comfy ride, spaces, lux feel) are there in the CS and vice-versa (precise handling, agility, performance) so which ones you're really after?

Are you sure? Pricing is not out until next week and I have not seen one in a dealership yet.

Yeah pretty sure cos I'm in Sweden!

[ringo]

Yeah I know, ringo keeping it alive for the CS lol.


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Damn, I lost that post in my multi-quote! Time-zone difference issues...

It won't be much long though, I've contributed what I could share in this topic, after some point it's just leads to repeating the same stuff. The only reason I'm so active is that I haven't received the car yet, otherwise I'd be out there driving it, not wasting time talking about it on forums

[Mattlock]

The S3 vs R reviews I've read/watched tend to lean more towards the R because the S3 felt more dull and disconnected and is more expensive.

I love my R. If the CS had been around at the time I bought it, then I'm fairly sure I would have bought the CS. The standard GTI was good but it was the R that gave me sweaty palms on the back-to-back test drive.


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[Bassik]

Damn, I lost that post in my multi-quote! Time-zone difference issues...

It won't be much long though, I've contributed what I could share in this topic, after some point it's just leads to repeating the same stuff. The only reason I'm so active is that I haven't received the car yet, otherwise I'd be out there driving it, not wasting time talking about it on forums

I noticed you only recently joined, I'm sure once it arrives you'll be off from here as was I when I bought my current car. When I bought my Polo I was on here every day, looking for some kind of reassurance - never got it....lol