Golf 40th vs Golf R

[Bassik]

If I went purely on looks the R is far better.


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[ringo]

If I went purely on looks the R is far better.

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Thought we were talking driving differences? For me looks were the reason I chose the Clubsport over the R

But at this point I'll admit I'm rather confused. You say you don't drive your car as hard enough any more to profit from the better dynamics of the Clubsport, you also say you prefer the R's subtler look, so, why is the Clubsport even an option still?? To me it's clear which one would make you happier.

[SevenR]

nuthin subtle about the quad pipes on the R, I love em

[Bassik]

Thought we were talking driving differences? For me looks were the reason I chose the Clubsport over the R

But at this point I'll admit I'm rather confused. You say you don't drive your car as hard enough any more to profit from the better dynamics of the Clubsport, you also say you prefer the R's subtler look, so, why is the Clubsport even an option still?? To me it's clear which one would make you happier.

Oh no I was saying in comparison to the SEAT. The CS and R are both pretty good looking cars.


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[ringo]

Oh no I was saying in comparison to the SEAT. The CS and R are both pretty good looking cars.


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All-right. Yes SEAT's super dull and un-inspiring unfortunately despite great driving characteristics. THe Leon was the first car that I was that close to ordering but I rejected because something didn't feel quite right about the way it looked in and out. R was definitely better in that department, but driving was worse. So a second rejection in the end. Third attempt with the Clubsport and it just ticked all of the boxes so "I'd have one fully loaded in carbon steel grey thank you"...

[WhiteJames]

I'm not arguing with you guys on the veracity of the Auto Express video Cupra -v- R. Agree wholeheartedly on the comments & the result. The Golf GTI Clubsport would be better on the track, the slalom, turn-in alacrity and fast direction changes. The GTI would have the Golf R covered in fuel economy and ride comfort too.

In real life & on the street, the Golf R would be the prudent choice. The Golf R also comes with free leather, making it about the same price as the GTI ED40 Clubsport with leather option (if it existed).

Most of the reviews I've come across indicate as long as the Golf R exists about the same price point, the ED40 Clubsport GTI is not as convincing, esp. the AUS version without the funky front racing seats.

Question? Do those funky racing seats in the EURO version Clubsport have airbags in the side of them?

WJ

[ringo]

I'm not arguing with you guys on the veracity of the Auto Express video Cupra -v- R. Agree wholeheartedly on the comments & the result. The Golf GTI Clubsport would be better on the track, the slalom, turn-in alacrity and fast direction changes. The GTI would have the Golf R covered in fuel economy and ride comfort too.

In real life & on the street, the Golf R would be the prudent choice. The Golf R also comes with free leather, making it about the same price as the GTI ED40 Clubsport with leather option (if it existed).

Most of the reviews I've come across indicate as long as the Golf R exists about the same price point, the ED40 Clubsport GTI is not as convincing, esp. the AUS version without the funky front racing seats.

Question? Do those funky racing seats in the EURO version Clubsport have airbags in the side of them?

WJ

So I think we come back to it being a priorities question. For anyone that is after the most involving daily driver the Clubsport is the clear choice. All-weather traction the R would come out on top naturally. Still, in my 20 years of driving it's not like I see AWD going faster in the rain than the rest of the cars. Everyone seems to be travelling at normal speeds all the time. Can't say how important are the leather seats (nothing to die for personally) but I could spec leather on every hot-hatch I considered whereas proper bucket seats was only an option on the Clubsport and on the Focus RS and I know it was love at first sight. Regarding the reviews, the likes of Autocar and Autoexpress which are reviewing more "everyday" cars will rate the R higher for its usability (aka better traction) and value for money whereas EVO or CAR or Top Gear will stress the more rewarding drive and superior dynamics of the Clubsport (as they have done already).

On the "real life" part I don't think there's much more for the R to be honest. When it's pouring outside or when conditions are bad I drive sensibly anyway, no need to pick that day to explore my car's limits on a public road surely. I have also not ever been a fan of traffic light racing. The funniest part though is that the (less daily??) CS has a nearly 40lt bigger boot (380lt. vs 343 on the R) due to the lack of the Haldex controller. Going for a hatch that needs to cover family needs (hate estates) I could use every extra liter I could get. The loading floor of the R seemed so high that I couldn't even fit two big suitcases on top of one another so there goes any argument on extra R practicality for me.

[Bassik]

Golf 40th vs Golf R

So I think we come back to it being a priorities question. For anyone that is after the most involving daily driver the Clubsport is the clear choice. All-weather traction the R would come out on top naturally. Still, in my 20 years of driving it's not like I see AWD going faster in the rain than the rest of the cars. Everyone seems to be travelling at normal speeds all the time. Can't say how important are the leather seats (nothing to die for personally) but I could spec leather on every hot-hatch I considered whereas proper bucket seats was only an option on the Clubsport and on the Focus RS and I know it was love at first sight. Regarding the reviews, the likes of Autocar and Autoexpress which are reviewing more "everyday" cars will rate the R higher for its usability (aka better traction) and value for money whereas EVO or CAR or Top Gear will stress the more rewarding drive and superior dynamics of the Clubsport (as they have done already).

On the "real life" part I don't think there's much more for the R to be honest. When it's pouring outside or when conditions are bad I drive sensibly anyway, no need to pick that day to explore my car's limits on a public road surely. I have also not ever been a fan of traffic light racing. The funniest part though is that the (less daily??) CS has a nearly 40lt bigger boot (380lt. vs 343 on the R) due to the lack of the Haldex controller. Going for a hatch that needs to cover family needs (hate estates) I could use every extra liter I could get. The loading floor of the R seemed so high that I couldn't even fit two big suitcases on top of one another so there goes any argument on extra R practicality for me.

You know that boot point actually played a big factor in my decision thinking to. It was a big plus for me on the CS. Ahh crap lol

Having said that I still think the CS is a tad over priced. Granted it's a ED and it's perks and what not but it is very close to the R. Right now I'm just waiting as I'm in no rush for a new car. I do believe everyone when they say the CS is more of an enjoyable driving experience and it is. I drove one for 30mins on my own and enjoyed every minute. I have also driven an R but both times I had some 80-100kgs salesman sitting beside me telling me "it's a 60kms limit". There was that and an obvious near 180kgs extra weight in comparison to a GTI. So I'd like to say that it was a better experience but it wasn't in terms of fun and agility. It did grip better in my opinion but in a more confident way and not fun manoeuvring way.

I guess the fact you can buy an R from anywhere from $45k - $60k kinda gives me a buying guide where as the CS is tight squeeze of a couple of grand. Having said that I got quoted $55k for dsg and sunroof. Best I've seen yet, but that ship has sailed now.

You know it annoys me coz the whole deal was I was going to make my decision the day my car arrived but the salesman I dealt with went on leave last week and some dude filled in for him hence why he was pushing me to make a decision. If I test drive it the day my car was there I reckon I would have fell in love and couldn't have walked away. My partner is happy though coz now she wants the new Tiguan R Line.

Ehh I'm just whinging now....lol


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[Bassik]

Golf 40th vs Golf R

Delete

[ringo]

You know that boot point actually played a big factor in my decision thinking to. It was a big plus for me on the CS. Ahh crap lol

Having said that I still think the CS is a tad over priced. Granted it's a ED and it's perks and what not but it is very close to the R. Right now I'm just waiting as I'm in no rush for a new car. I do believe everyone when they say the CS is more of an enjoyable driving experience and it is. I drove one for 30mins on my own and enjoyed every minute. I have also driven an R but both times I had some 80-100kgs salesman sitting beside me telling me "it's a 60kms limit". There was that and an obvious near 180kgs extra weight in comparison to a GTI. So I'd like to say that it was a better experience but it wasn't in terms of fun and agility. It did grip better in my opinion but in a more confident way and not fun manoeuvring way.

I guess the fact you can buy an R from anywhere from $45k - $60k kinda gives me a buying guide where as the CS is tight squeeze of a couple of grand. Having said that I got quoted $55k for dsg and sunroof. Best I've seen yet, but that ship has sailed now.

You know it annoys me coz the whole deal was I was going to make my decision the day my car arrived but the salesman I dealt with went on leave last week and some dude filled in for him hence why he was pushing me to make a decision. If I test drive it the day my car was there I reckon I would have fell in love and couldn't have walked away. My partner is happy though coz now she wants the new Tiguan R Line.

Ehh I'm just whinging now....lol


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Well, what you report is on par with every other review I have seen comparing the CS to the R. More agile, more direct, more lively, more fun! What I don't get is how come some people think 50K for an R is a reasonable amount of money for what is practically a Golf, yet for the the same car, same options, same engine this time! (not GTI) same gearbox, better chassis and sporty design but FWD it suddenly becomes too much?? Since when did the AWD become a necessity for a good car? I must have missed that point in car history... Yes, it could be of use under certain occasions but how often really? Because in my 20 years of driving in mild climates I haven't come across more than a couple of them honestly.

When I test-drove the R I took the baby's stroller with me. Ok, it's not the smallest one but that's the one we got and the fact I could not fit a large suitcase below it made me seriously worry about it's practicality:




You'll enjoy hearing that we saw a brand new white R-Line Tiguan the other day on the road and the wife was: "Can you tell me again why we didn't buy THAT car?". Admittedly it looked very nice and if I ever get rid of the driver's car sickness I would totally jump into one, but for the time I replied: "Sweetie, I told you we were after a daily sports car with a proper chassis and around 300bhp. Will you repeat that for me please?"

[Bassik]

Well, what you report is on par with every other review I have seen comparing the CS to the R. More agile, more direct, more lively, more fun! What I don't get is how come some people think 50K for an R is a reasonable amount of money for what is practically a Golf, yet for the the same car, same options, same engine this time! (not GTI) same gearbox, better chassis and sporty design but FWD it suddenly becomes too much?? Since when did the AWD become a necessity for a good car? I must have missed that point in car history... Yes, it could be of use under certain occasions but how often really? Because in my 20 years of driving in mild climates I haven't come across more than a couple of them honestly.

You'll enjoy hearing that we saw a brand new white R-Line Tiguan the other day on the road and the wife was: "Can you tell me again why we didn't buy THAT car?". Admittedly it looked very nice and if I ever get rid of the driver's car sickness I would totally jump into one, but for the time I replied: "Sweetie, I told you we were after a daily sports car with a proper chassis and around 300bhp. Will you repeat that for me please?"

Well that's good news then. We don't even have pricing on the Tiguan here. Originally the decision was between these two but considering it's not even out yet here in Oz, it was clear the CS was the pick. I fear it will cost a lot more than the CS as well? It certainly appeals (to me) to be a luxury car - the drivers experience. Although I would enjoy driving over around-abouts lol. It's definitely a change overall.

I don't deny the points you make on the comparison between the CS and R. The top range Golf is the R, hence the price point. Its not necessarily "the better car" it's just what it's priced at, we can't negate that fact. It's also just nature to pick the better deal, if you see a loaf of bread for $3 and then just next to that you see a brand that sells same loaf 2 for 1 at $3, you'll pick the on sales option. My point is that your competing against a second hand market option towards only new. If the CS was out for 6-12 months already, there'd be a second hard market and the $ gaps would be more realistic. See if I said you can buy a GTi PP for $42k, where does that put your thoughts on the CS? That's almost $15k more, if you bargain. I'd even go to say the PP was still more enjoyable in terms of agility as well. Throw a tune in it and you've got a pretty quick and decent GTi. Anyways that's my grief. All these cars priced at new well then I'd agree and say the R is a rip and if go hands down on a CS. I just read on another thread that the Golf R wagon is $75k, now what warrants that sort of money on a Golf, come on.

[ringo]

Well that's good news then. We don't even have pricing on the Tiguan here. Originally the decision was between these two but considering it's not even out yet here in Oz, it was clear the CS was the pick. I fear it will cost a lot more than the CS as well? It certainly appeals (to me) to be a luxury car - the drivers experience. Although I would enjoy driving over around-abouts lol. It's definitely a change overall.

I don't deny the points you make on the comparison between the CS and R. The top range Golf is the R, hence the price point. Its not necessarily "the better car" it's just what it's priced at, we can't negate that fact. It's also just nature to pick the better deal, if you see a loaf of bread for $3 and then just next to that you see a brand that sells same loaf 2 for 1 at $3, you'll pick the on sales option. My point is that your competing against a second hand market option towards only new. If the CS was out for 6-12 months already, there'd be a second hard market and the $ gaps would be more realistic. See if I said you can buy a GTi PP for $42k, where does that put your thoughts on the CS? That's almost $15k more, if you bargain. I'd even go to say the PP was still more enjoyable in terms of agility as well. Throw a tune in it and you've got a pretty quick and decent GTi. Anyways that's my grief. All these cars priced at new well then I'd agree and say the R is a rip and if go hands down on a CS. I just read on another thread that the Golf R wagon is $75k, now what warrants that sort of money on a Golf, come on.

The Tiguan is not as expensive as you might think, at least here it's the same price as the CS but can go around 10-15% more depending on the options (and there are many), talking about the 190bhp diesel, don't see the point of petrol in such a vehicle.

I know that the R is marketed as the Golf flagship but I also know what I see in the technical specs and that's a far bigger deciding factor than what title the manufacturer sticks on any of its variants or how he chooses to promote it. They are very similar cars in terms of drivetrain (engine and gearbox), one is AWD and a comfier ride, the other one FWD, a bit stiffer and more driving focused, everything else being the same. Both great options, so their price either makes sense for both of them or for none of them.

I don't know how many used Clubsports you'll find in 6-12 months and at what price. It's a special model for me to estimate precisely. I guess they are all going to be more pricey than any used GTI. Don't try to seduce me with a GTI though, you'd be fighting a losing battle. There's so many reasons I would choose (and chose indeed) the CS. The money I'd spend to bring a GTI into stock CS performance is not worth it when that car already exists. Not to mention looks is a department the CS wins hands down and you can't do much about it. Also used vs. new is not a valid comparison, has to either be new vs. new or used vs. used. Since you brought it up, throw a tune on the CS and you get the real party started. APR published today some figures about a stage 1 Clubsport in Germany, just a tune, no exhaust no intake no nothing: 360bhp / 515 Nm, that's going to upset a lot of entry-level super cars on the road and on the track for sure. I wanted the bigger turbo and uprated internals of the R to have some safe tuning potential so that's another reason I went for the CS.

Not sure about the "GTI PP more enjoyable" part. Did you mean compared to the CS or the R?

[Bassik]

The Tiguan is not as expensive as you might think, at least here it's the same price as the CS but can go around 10-15% more depending on the options (and there are many), talking about the 190bhp diesel, don't see the point of petrol in such a vehicle.

I know that the R is marketed as the Golf flagship but I also know what I see in the technical specs and that's a far bigger deciding factor than what title the manufacturer sticks on any of its variants or how he chooses to promote it. They are very similar cars in terms of drivetrain (engine and gearbox), one is AWD and a comfier ride, the other one FWD, a bit stiffer and more driving focused, everything else being the same. Both great options, so their price either makes sense for both of them or for none of them.

I don't know how many used Clubsports you'll find in 6-12 months and at what price. It's a special model for me to estimate precisely. I guess they are all going to be more pricey than any used GTI. Don't try to seduce me with a GTI though, you'd be fighting a losing battle. There's so many reasons I would choose (and chose indeed) the CS. The money I'd spend to bring a GTI into stock CS performance is not worth it when that car already exists. Not to mention looks is a department the CS wins hands down and you can't do much about it. Also used vs. new is not a valid comparison, has to either be new vs. new or used vs. used. Since you brought it up, throw a tune on the CS and you get the real party started. APR published today some figures about a stage 1 Clubsport in Germany, just a tune, no exhaust no intake no nothing: 360bhp / 515 Nm, that's going to upset a lot of entry-level super cars on the road and on the track for sure. I wanted the bigger turbo and uprated internals of the R to have some safe tuning potential so that's another reason I went for the CS.

Not sure about the "GTI PP more enjoyable" part. Did you mean compared to the CS or the R?

Really I would only go petrol, maybe that's coz I've never driven diesel before. A mate said the same thing "I'd only go Diesel". I'd only be interested in the R Line Pack as I think that has a few options included which I'd want. Can't wait for Oz pricing, or I can lol.

In quoting your second paragraph do you think the fact that the R is the flagship is due to manufacturing costs of the 4WD? There has to be a reason why it is the highest priced model?

Oh yea you're right there isn't a comparison with the standard GTi and I wouldn't even bother doing a custom build to CS if its already there. I just mean't in terms of BHP #, you could tune a PP and get a close output to the CS and the PP is a pretty cool GTi. I did mean the PP was more enjoyable than the R not GTi, it just lacks the power. See it's weird coz if you bought a standard GTi, you could be pushed to a PP and then at that price (new) why not get the CS and then again if you want flagship get an R. It all comes back down to $ and what you want as a driver. R if you want top speed and crazy traction, CS if you want LE and driving experience (I'd also put the PP in there a little bit) and then the standard GTi for a fancier Golf TSI. If you want looks just go for the Highline with the R Line Pack.... Easy??

[daniel123]

You'll enjoy hearing that we saw a brand new white R-Line Tiguan the other day on the road and the wife was: "Can you tell me again why we didn't buy THAT car?". Admittedly it looked very nice and if I ever get rid of the driver's car sickness I would totally jump into one, but for the time I replied: "Sweetie, I told you we were after a daily sports car with a proper chassis and around 300bhp. Will you repeat that for me please?"

Exactly why I jumped on the R Wagon.

Tiguan was my next choice if had missed out.

[ringo]

Really I would only go petrol, maybe that's coz I've never driven diesel before. A mate said the same thing "I'd only go Diesel". I'd only be interested in the R Line Pack as I think that has a few options included which I'd want. Can't wait for Oz pricing, or I can lol.

In quoting your second paragraph do you think the fact that the R is the flagship is due to manufacturing costs of the 4WD? There has to be a reason why it is the highest priced model?

Oh yea you're right there isn't a comparison with the standard GTi and I wouldn't even bother doing a custom build to CS if its already there. I just mean't in terms of BHP #, you could tune a PP and get a close output to the CS and the PP is a pretty cool GTi. I did mean the PP was more enjoyable than the R not GTi, it just lacks the power. See it's weird coz if you bought a standard GTi, you could be pushed to a PP and then at that price (new) why not get the CS and then again if you want flagship get an R. It all comes back down to $ and what the you want as a driver. R if you want top speed and crazy traction, CS if you want LE and driving experience (I'd also put the PP in there a little bit) and then the standard GTi for a fancier Golf TSI. If you want looks just go for the Highline with the R Line Pack.... Easy??

The R was/is the most expensive Golf because until recently it was the only one that had the most expensive engine + turbo combo of the range plus the AWD and it was supposed to be the flagship (that fact can be priced however the manufacturer sees fit). Now the Clubsport gets also the same engine and turbo and if you check the price difference between a FWD and a 4Motion otherwise similar Passats, it is a mere 700 eur in Europe, that's less than half the Discover Pro head unit (1700 eur).

In terms of manufacturing costs, what I know is that in fact every Clubsport takes longer to manufacture than any GTI or R because of some unique parts that need to be fitted to the car (didn't understand which ones exactly, if it had to do with the buckets or something else). For that, the car is built in the Wolfsburg plant, then taken to another factory to have these parts fitted and then back to Wolfsburg. That was what my dealer told me when I asked why with a build week 24 the car hadn't yet been completed by week 28 whereas other GTIs and Rs in my area had already been delivered by that time. I assume some of the bespoke CS parts are not part of the standard production line and require the car be moved around.

I can agree to the GTI => PP => CS thinking because all those are improvements/evolutions of the previous variant. The jump to the R is not only improvements though. In fact compared to the CS it actually means a few drawbacks (suddenly more weight, a smaller boot, less agility etc and a lesser driving experience) with the only reward being the AWD. So it doesn't matter what VW promotes as the Golf flagship. The facts are there and for me the clear MK7 flagship in terms of driving pleasure is, as of a few months now, the Clubsport.