Golf 40th vs Golf R

[SevenR]

yes, jb1 is a 'signal bender'/'piggy back' tuning box.
I had something very similar on my twin turbo 335i bmw - the JB4.
I had awesome results with it in terms of power/torque increase - totally transformed the car as its only mod.

i dont believe the jb1 on the R is quite as good, but I've read nothing but great reports so far.

one other feature the jb4 has on the bmw is gauge hijacking, (stock fuel gauge becomes a boost gauge on a certain throttle % & many other combinations). As well as dataloging & map selection - all from using the steering wheel buttons.

if the jb4 gets released for the R i will get one otherwise its going to be the JB1.

[ringo]

Great write up ringo thnx, so having test driven both I had a feeling you'd most probably go for the 40th. I also do agree it would be more fun to drive. I sensed it from the GTi PP and as I mentioned before even my Polo GTi was more enjoyable to scoot around in, more agile and zippier. However now coming to a Golf I've found myself just wanting more comfort, luxury with the option to have a little fun.

May I ask in comparison was the CS noticely stiffer even with dampers on comfort? I say this because I noticed the difference with the R from comfort to race mode. I really liked that option.

I'm sorry I haven't test-driven the Clubsport, only the GTI PP, the R, and the Leon Cupra which probably is a very close match in terms of the CS behaviour. I've spoken with a couple of journalists that did drive it though as I wanted to be sure just how different the ride is as I intend to use it as a daily driver as well, and not just a week-end fun car. Both said it doesn't really feel much harsher than a GTI, especially on Comfort mode, and that it can well serve the purpose of a family car as well as cruiser as good as a standard GTI. The DCC should be working similar to GTI/R but with each mode feeling that bit tighter due to the 10% stiffer dampers. When I drove both the GTI and the R in Comfort mode they felt way too soft (in a good way), meaning that there is still a lot of "play" for tightening the suspension without exceeding what one would consider as a comfortable ride (for a performance hatch like the Golf). The Clubsport is reported to be profiting from exactly this margin I think. I hope I can give my own review in less than a month should I take delivery of mine in July, as planned.

[ringo]

If you like track work the lighter GTI Clubsport 40 may be OK but for everyday driving and engineering value a R is hard to beat, stock R ($55000) with a JB1 ($650) on 98RON you get 270KW 495NM and you can use this power wet or dry. It's a fantastic package for the price see Autocars top 5 Top 5 cars on sale today | Autocar

Just one word (ok maybe a bit more) on the usability and everyday driving here: Many years FWD driver, some of them being 330+ bhp (tuned) FWD and honestly I can't say I was experiencing any lack of drive-ability that often to consider it an issue, even less on everyday driving. The FWD power usability is brought up way too much in such debates, than it actually is a problem from my experience. Reading some of the posts (not in this forum) one would be led to believe such cars are in a never-ending wheel-spin which couldn't be more far from the truth.

It only takes a set of good tyres, some basic throttle modulation and you will forget where the Traction Control light is. You probably won't be able to mindlessly mash the throttle in 1st or 2nd gear that I agree but once rolling the car will just grip and catapult ahead. Why would I need to use a whole lot of 500Nm if it's pouring or the road is for some reason more slippery than usual? That doesn't seem to be in line with any reasonable everyday driving scenario.

On the other hand, above 60-80km/h where the real speed "contest" starts, the car will just fly away no matter how deep you floor the pedal. Quite a few time in the past, my last FWD 1.4 TSI tuned to 230bhp/350Nm proved faster than RWD and AWD cars of similar power-to-weight ratio, different kind and number of wheels being driven unfortunately didn't give them an actual advantage. The reduced weight certainly did though, especially below top speeds

Most of central Europe, which i've driven with FWD cars over the last 15 years thankfully is that way, and I would imagine Australia would only be better in terms of weather conditions?

Last, I quote the reply from someone that test-drove the Clubsport (he actually reviews cars for a living) in my question to him of how does it compare to the R, which I had driven and personally found leaving a lot to be desired in terms of involvement and feedback:

"I actually think it would be a nicer everyday car than a Golf R (I run one everyday) just because it's that much more exciting and focused to drive on a good road and much better on circuit."


And again, this is not about what is the best car period, the right question is which is the best car for a specific type of driver. Out of the 10 people I know, my guess is around 8 of them would think I'm mad having any complaint about how the R drives and wouldn't even be able to detect those complaints on their own. I'm sure all 8 of them would get an R instead because of the AWD security and I'd probably recommend them an R myself as well. But then again I am doing different things with my cars, I expect much more and I am very happy when I am able to get the things I expect back from the car. And I am not talking only about the track. A nice empty back-road or mountain pass can be all that it takes to build such a relation. Especially with modern advanced but "flat" cars, this seems to be a harder and harder task every year.

[wasabiz]

My dealer just got their first one in stock and is available to buy.

Oh my goodness, I can't handle the wheels and the wings at the back. I do however love the front bumper.
It's funny how they still give the 19x7.5 wheel size given that this is a performance / sports model of the car.
I would've thought that they give at least 8 inch wide wheels.

[wasabiz]

And again, this is not about what is the best car period, the right question is which is the best car for a specific type of driver. Out of the 10 people I know, my guess is around 8 of them would think I'm mad having any complaint about how the R drives and wouldn't even be able to detect those complaints on their own. I'm sure all 8 of them would get an R instead because of the AWD security and I'd probably recommend them an R myself as well. But then again I am doing different things with my cars, I expect much more and I am very happy when I am able to get the things I expect back from the car. And I am not talking only about the track. A nice empty back-road or mountain pass can be all that it takes to build such a relation. Especially with modern advanced but "flat" cars, this seems to be a harder and harder task every year.

Best read ever.
I have been on the market for a new car recently and been test driving a number of different cars with RWD and AWD. I think i can sense what you're trying to say on the post because I didn't get as much thrill as I did with the other cars that I have tested compared to driving my own car (I might be biased here because I've lived with the car for 2 years). Mind you that the cars has been tested were M2, RS3 and A45. I sat back down on my car and felt the joy and thrill of having to drive FWD. The closest car that felt remotely as fun as the GTI was the RS3. I have yet to try the Focus RS, that one should be pretty interesting and might even steal my heart from the GTI.

[ringo]

Oh my goodness, I can't handle the wheels and the wings at the back. I do however love the front bumper.
It's funny how they still give the 19x7.5 wheel size given that this is a performance / sports model of the car.
I would've thought that they give at least 8 inch wide wheels.

I agree, these wheels look like they were taken from the Beetle or some other "funkier" Golf variant, they lack the seriousness/aggressiveness that the rest of the car is emitting. But thankfully they are an extra. For some strange reason VW has published many more photos with those on than the stock Belvedere 18x7.5J wheels which look way better and are much more suited to the car imho. Plus they are forged and light-weight. Here:

[Dutch77]

I agree, these wheels look like they were taken from the Beetle or some other "funkier" Golf variant, they lack the seriousness/aggressiveness that the rest of the car is emitting. But thankfully they are an extra. For some strange reason VW has published many more photos with those on than the stock Belvedere 18x7.5J wheels which look way better and are much more suited to the car imho. Plus they are forged and light-weight. Here:

The pics don't seem to work here, but I do know the wheels you are referring to and while I don't love them, they are a massive improvement over the 19s that are standard here - I don't believe any Australian cars are coming with them.

I'm guessing anyone who is buying the 40th over a GTI/PP is doing it for the performance and will likely swap them for something much nicer - and lighter.

[Bassik]

Yeah weird I don't mind the rims they are rather nice. But prefer the the R for sure.


Just to add (what type of driver am I)
I'm not a track driver and never have been and don't plan to. I'm more a good road opportunist. I tend to favour a more spirited drive home rather then your typical HWYs and main roads kinda guy. I'd be buying the 40th more so for uniqueness, resell value, over performance.


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[ringo]

The pics don't seem to work here, but I do know the wheels you are referring to and while I don't love them, they are a massive improvement over the 19s that are standard here - I don't believe any Australian cars are coming with them.

I'm guessing anyone who is buying the 40th over a GTI/PP is doing it for the performance and will likely swap them for something much nicer - and lighter.

Links playing games, hope now they are working. The Belvedere 18x7.5, the standard Clubsport wheel in Europe:









Is it really true that VW Australia ditched them for the (average looking and heavier) Brescias instead? Can't believe that.

I am quite particular with wheels, they can almost either sell or spoil a car to me. Fortunately I find the Belvedere above quite nice to the point that I'll at least keep them as my winter set and buy some 19" for summer or even keep them for my main set and buy a cheaper winter set depending on how much I like them once i see them in the flesh. Definitely much better than the rest of the standard options on the GTI and R (Austins and Cadiz in Europe).

You can't go much lower in weight though. According to some German owners, the Belvedere are made from Fuchs in Germany (known for making several Porsche wheels), they are forged and as light as 7,6 kg per wheel... Can't get that light even with OZ in 18" size and without spending an absurd amount of money, a great wheel all-in-all.

[Dutch77]

Links playing games, hope now they are working. The Belvedere 18x7.5, the standard Clubsport wheel in Europe:

..

Is it really true that VW Australia ditched them for the (average looking and heavier) Brescias instead? Can't believe that.

I am quite particular with wheels, they can almost either sell or spoil a car to me. Fortunately I find the Belvedere above quite nice to the point that I'll at least keep them as my winter set and buy some 19" for summer or even keep them for my main set and buy a cheaper winter set depending on how much I like them once i see them in the flesh. Definitely much better than the rest of the standard options on the GTI and R (Austins and Cadiz in Europe).

You can't go much lower in weight though. According to some German owners, the Belvedere are made from Fuchs in Germany (known for making several Porsche wheels), they are forged and as light as 7,6 kg per wheel... Can't get that light even with OZ in 18" size and without spending an absurd amount of money, a great wheel all-in-all.

It's fair to say I am a bit of a wheel guy, and yes VW Australia has blessed us with Cadiz instead of Pretoria on the R (except for a run of 'Wolfsburg' badged cars that had black Pretorias fitted) and now the Ruby/Brescia instead of the much better Belvedere.

I concur that the Belvedere is made by Fuchs and is listed at 7.6kg - so that wheel is perfect for the car and yeah, it is growing on me now. A private import would cost up at $4,500-$5,000 AUD so that is never going to happen here.

[Primordial]

It's fair to say I am a bit of a wheel guy, and yes VW Australia has blessed us with Cadiz instead of Pretoria on the R (except for a run of 'Wolfsburg' badged cars that had black Pretorias fitted) and now the Ruby/Brescia instead of the much better Belvedere.

I concur that the Belvedere is made by Fuchs and is listed at 7.6kg - so that wheel is perfect for the car and yeah, it is growing on me now. A private import would cost up at $4,500-$5,000 AUD so that is never going to happen here.

Yeah the Pretoria's in silver would be my pick (I've got them in black, on my Wolfsburg). I bought some 'light weight' wheels for track days, which are actually heavier than the Pretorias! They are an awesome wheel!



On topic of the 40th versus R thing - I've owned a MK6 GTI (modified), and obviously the 7R above (which is also modified). The nimbleness of the GTI is the key here. The R is definitely sure-footed, but it feels weighty compared to the more 'chuckable' GTI. The clubsport/40th would be another league again with its tighter suspension and other bits.

That said, I disagree about traction not being an issue with the 40th anniversary. If you're keeping the car stock it might be fine, but if you're modifying at all, you WILL have traction issues. The LSD is great for corner exits, but you're going to be breaking traction in slower corners with BOTH wheels (LSD is irrelevant here!) when you increase the torque with an ECU tune or similar. By comparison in the R, often you can mash the throttle before the apex and it will just pull you tighter into the corner and lay down 100% torque on corner exit. That is massively confidence inspiring, and I find myself actually pushing a lot harder in the R, where I would be much more tentative in the GTI. Personally I enjoy being able to push harder (read: faster) in the R, over the fact that the GTI was more nimble. That's just my personal preference and driving style. It's really your own style which will decide which is more enjoyable to you.

As someone else mentioned, test driving a PP will be similar in feel to the 40th. Though I doubt you'll be pushing hard enough in a test drive to show the true differences between the 40th and the R. Good luck with the choice though mate - they are both killer cars!

[SevenR]

^nailed it.

[Mattlock]

^nailed it.

Seconded!

I love my R and the way it corners. Yes, it does feel heavier on turn-in and can be a bit harder to settle down but on the apex it's mighty. It really is a slow-in, fast-out car.

The only thing that would have stopped me buying the R is the PP with a manual 'box. Same for the Wolfie R (where I would have gained the Pretorias and the blue paint).

A manual 'box is crucial for engagement IMO and the DSG GTI & R left me flat.


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[Bassik]

A manual 'box is crucial for engagement IMO and the DSG GTI & R left me flat.

See I used to drive a Polo GTi and then before that it was a DC2 and I loved the manual box in that. However after driving the DSG I'm pro DSG now, reasons:

Awesome in traffic
Paddle shift option
Sports mode
Quicker shifting
Launch Control

I believe manual benefits in more engaging as you say, and obviously cheaper allround.

[ringo]

Yeah the Pretoria's in silver would be my pick (I've got them in black, on my Wolfsburg). I bought some 'light weight' wheels for track days, which are actually heavier than the Pretorias! They are an awesome wheel!



On topic of the 40th versus R thing - I've owned a MK6 GTI (modified), and obviously the 7R above (which is also modified). The nimbleness of the GTI is the key here. The R is definitely sure-footed, but it feels weighty compared to the more 'chuckable' GTI. The clubsport/40th would be another league again with its tighter suspension and other bits.

That said, I disagree about traction not being an issue with the 40th anniversary. If you're keeping the car stock it might be fine, but if you're modifying at all, you WILL have traction issues. The LSD is great for corner exits, but you're going to be breaking traction in slower corners with BOTH wheels (LSD is irrelevant here!) when you increase the torque with an ECU tune or similar. By comparison in the R, often you can mash the throttle before the apex and it will just pull you tighter into the corner and lay down 100% torque on corner exit. That is massively confidence inspiring, and I find myself actually pushing a lot harder in the R, where I would be much more tentative in the GTI. Personally I enjoy being able to push harder (read: faster) in the R, over the fact that the GTI was more nimble. That's just my personal preference and driving style. It's really your own style which will decide which is more enjoyable to you.

As someone else mentioned, test driving a PP will be similar in feel to the 40th. Though I doubt you'll be pushing hard enough in a test drive to show the true differences between the 40th and the R. Good luck with the choice though mate - they are both killer cars!

Good points and it is true that there are probably going to be issues on slow corners if you request the entire 500 (remapped) Nm from a set of turned wheels a lot earlier than hitting the apex. That is if the OP is looking into remapping of-course. With stock torque of 350/380Nm it shouldn't be as much of a problem as the very similar Leon Cupra has proven so far.

But you shouldn't wait too long to floor it either, at least nowhere as long as you'd wait in the past. In fact the feed-back we've got from the most hard-core lsd-equipped MQB FWD variants like the Cupra and Clubsport is that they are nothing like the previous MK6 in terms of handling or anything like traditional FWD cars most of us where used to up to now. Not even the journalists have got their head round that yet. You still read how contrary to common belief these cars can corner. This was also my impression from the Cupra I test-drove (and I was about to order until the Clubsport was introduced). You could not honestly tell whether the car was FWD or not by the way it took corners, it was unbelievably smooth and neutral.

In fact most reviewers are recommending attacking the corners as much as your confidence permits, applying the throttle rather early and stay on it making the lsd to work in your favour and sling-shot you out of the corner. Surely the AWD will put 100% of the power down all the time, but on the Clubsport/Cupra you can benefit from a faster and more agile turn-in and corner entry, ultimately carrying more speed for more time around the corner which means you don't need to make up for such a big drop in speed as you need to do with the R for example. And in the end, in a series of close bends this will make a difference.

One downside is that you need to be prepared to be involved and push the car more to actually benefit from this behaviour which is not the typical approach of: braking, turning and just slamming the throttle hoping the car can indeed put the power down, but it is also a more rewarding and ultimately more efficient process. So I guess it's again back to driving style, preferences and priorities.

The following video of a Clubsport chasing an R at the Portimao track is rather indicative of how more composed and able to keep tighter lines the Clubsport is compared to the R:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkLrq2mc9Mc&list=PL1gJICZyZQfx86rXvBOBCsZUJMOArU8tY&index=2