Golf 40th vs Golf R

[ringo]

Can't wait for mine to arrive hopefully this week, I'm coming from an RS3 so happy to give feedback once driven hard. I'll be replacing wheels and hopefully a few minor mods. 5 years ago I owned a 3 door Golf R which was completely modified and I even went to the extent of importing genuine VW buckets, if I didn't use the car everyday I would consider ordering them for the CS once available.

Whoever has them in Germany (they are the first ones that have received their cars) says they are super comfortable and great on long drives as well so daily usage shouldn't be an issue. I got them on mine and will be using the car as our daily driver, let's hope the reports are accurate.

I think the handling improvement from the Clubsport compared to the RS3 should be quite noticeable. I haven't lived with one (RS3), and I will admit that it has a great engine and the noise from the 5-pot is superb but it's so nose heavy and prone to under-steer that it just kills the car dynamically for me. Looking forward to your own findings of-course.

[WhiteJames]

The issue with the Golf 7 is a combination of lighter weight & the fact that the motor have been moved rearwards compared to the MK6 Golf. When you drive uphill, instead of the weight on the motor falling backwards loading up the tyres in the MK6, the Golf 7 motor tends to fall back onto the chassis to a greater degree causing issues with traction. Add in more torque and you know the result.

The Golf 7 GTI does torque steer to a small degree in 3rd and upwards, where the computer altering the steering allows for a looser grip on things. Eliminating torque completely would dull the experience to a greater degree.

When I state issues about FWD grip, I'm talking about now. Obviously, this is exacerbated in the base model standard Golf 7 GTI as it so light at the front end. I been driving my Golf 7 GTI MTrans today, yesterday, last week. Not 10-15 years ago. Over the past ten years, I have being driving a MKV, MK6 and now Golf 7 GTI ... not a Mitsubishi Cordia or early Saab Turbo. I seen the changes in each respective model.

Here's a video to show you how things have changed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m1BCn_mu9o

WJ

[ringo]

The issue with the Golf 7 is a combination of lighter weight & the fact that the motor have been moved rearwards compared to the MK6 Golf. When you drive uphill, instead of the weight on the motor falling backwards loading up the tyres in the MK6, the Golf 7 motor tends to fall back onto the chassis to a greater degree causing issues with traction. Add in more torque and you know the result.

The Golf 7 GTI does torque steer to a small degree in 3rd and upwards, where the computer altering the steering allows for a looser grip on things. Eliminating torque completely would dull the experience to a greater degree.

When I state issues about FWD grip, I'm talking about now. Obviously, this is exacerbated in the base model standard Golf 7 GTI as it so light at the front end. I been driving my Golf 7 GTI MTrans today, yesterday, last week. Not 10-15 years ago. Over the past ten years, I have being driving a MKV, MK6 and now Golf 7 GTI ... not a Mitsubishi Cordia or early Saab Turbo. I seen the changes in each respective model.

Here's a video to show you how things have changed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m1BCn_mu9o

WJ

The MK7 GTI experience (especially a non PP one) does not apply to the Clubsport I'm afraid. The VAQ makes all the difference in eliminating torque steer and is further aided by the upgraded suspension. I also can't imagine how steep would the uphill need to be to cause such issues when my 200bhp/ton FWD on Michelin Pilot Sports with a mere XDS (not even a proper diff like the VAQ) was faster in an 5km uphill that my buddy's MKI Cayman, without any traction issues. I know it's hard to believe how things have changed, go test-drive one (or a Leon Cupra if a Clubsport is not available) and you'll see what everyone is about when talking about these cars

Speaking of things that have changed I don't really get what the point is with that video. That AWD offering superior traction off the line than a RWD? Surely you must have known about this fact for ages?

This video is more indicative of how things have really changed in the hot-hatch FWD department with cars like the Cupra and the Clubsport that are blessed with an lsd and a proper focused chassis (don't confuse it with your standard GTI), 4':56'' in:

https://youtu.be/Wfe0oCSpQJA?list=PL1gJICZyZQfzoQw3i74kTjFbZXm0QqhfP&t=296

Not that I need to say a lot on the performance of these cars. They have proven what they're capable of by lap times around various tracks and the Nurburgring that you could/can hardly believe would be possible from a FWD till now, putting a lot of stonger RWD/AWD cars to shame (boards with official times are easily available). It's even more crazy he's able to get the car work almost near its full potential even in such a wet track... this is the evolution.

[Vagabond]

Just went to a showroom and saw a white ED 40 (sold) next to an R...


In person... wow... I think I'm definitely following my heart on this one. I couldnt look away from the 40th.

Red accents on seat belts so good haha

[xssiiv]

Just went to a showroom and saw a white ED 40 (sold) next to an R...


In person... wow... I think I'm definitely following my heart on this one. I couldnt look away from the 40th.

Red accents on seat belts so good haha

Nice, no photo? Lol

[Vagabond]

Of course I took a few: Ed40 - Album on Imgur

I just don't think they do it justice vs. seeing it in person

[Billecartz]

I have already ordered my "Clubsport" stickers

[Billecartz]

I am thinking of replacing my MY16 manual Gti with a CS manual as those who prefer manuals can finally have the tricky diff and bigger brakes. My dealer is getting one in red which I like. My Mk 6 Gti, Mk 7 R and Mk 7 Gti have all been white so it's probably time for a change. The naysayers tell me that red won't be good for resale. What are everyone's thoughts on resale bearing in mind that there will only be 90 all up in manual?

Thanks

Red is the stereotypical GTI colour and my trade in price for my current MK7 GTI is no different to any other colour. I believe condition and KM's dictate price rather than colour. There are exceptions to that, if you buy a yellow or red Porsche as the buyers of these tend to like more understated colour, hence most are black, white and silver. Typically you would expect to get between 5-7% less for the two colours.

I have ordered a Red manual and don't see it as a negative, especially as manuals are becoming more rare. Only 10% of all VW buyers pick a manual, but one day when i sell it on the second hand market to an enthusiast I am sure there will be many manual buyers and with only 90 coming in across three colours I don't see a problem in shifting it.

[Billecartz]

A decade to a decade and a half ago the mainstream models for private buyers were Commodore S/SV6 and Falcon XR6. Volkswagen is slowly becoming a mainstream model just like the sport Falcodores have been. The Golf 7 is now a top 10 seller in terms of overall number of sales in AUS. Especially is you take away Falcodore fleet sales.

In other words: The Volkswagen Golf GTI is the modern Commodore S/XR6 and the Golf R the XR8/SS imo. Over 20% of Golf sales are GTI's apparently. Lots of them out there now and this will only increase once Holden and Ford close shop in AUS imo. If you want to know what a Manual Transmission will do for resale & ease of selling, think back to Manual SV6/SS or manual XR6/XR8!

WJ

You cannot compare these cars as they are much larger in size that a Golf, most were rep hacks and in automatic so anyone could drive them. Smaller cars were more often than not manuals with automatics becoming more prevalent in the past 10 years. Again your logic is flawed!

[Billecartz]

I came to Australia in 2009. 4 cylinder hot hatches are my thing. I know nothing of the behemoths produced by the dinosaurs.

I'll answer my own question. 90 Clubsport manuals total. My one will be red. When I sell in 2 years there won't be many for sale. If a buyer wants a manual Clubsport he will not be in a position to be too fussy about colour.

Yes I agree Bryce, the second hand market is very different to new and as 25% of GTI's are now purchased as manuals it makes sense there will be no issue.

[Billecartz]

Seems you are basing this on FWD experiences 10-15 years ago. Those cars couldn't even handle 200bhp without torque steer and understeer issues but thankfully things have moved on a great deal and such behaviours are no more the case with todays's top FWD performance hatches. I can assure you after having driven a couple of them that you would struggle to tell for sure the car was FWD without knowing.

In what regards the MQB top FWD variants in particular, there is no lack of drive-ability at all, the lsd is working wonders and is actually offering additional anti-yaw characteristics compared to a traditional mechanical lsd and the chassis handles the added power no problem. If one thing could be told for the MK7 GTI is that it has a slightly lighter rear end, but the Clubsport addresses precisely this issue with its aerodynamics and suspension mods on the rear axle. Reports are that there is significantly more rear-end grip especially at higher speeds and a much more planted behaviour all around.

In fact, I put as much as 340Nm down quite easily on my last merely 1,200 kg tuned car which was even based on the much older and far less advanced PQ24 platform. I tracked the car, drove it hard on the road and never had an issue with the car being uncontrollable despite the nearly 40% increased power and torque compared to stock.

We're long past the times that manufacturers had to increase stability by adding weight, thank God for that. An optimized weight distribution and axle geometry, a focused chassis, an advanced e-lsd and a good set of tyres and you can be putting those 300bhp down under practically every situation.

I was fortunate enough to own two MK1 Golfs in the early 90's. Due to their unequal drive shaft lengths and other factors they torque steered very little, not like say a Mazda or Ford of that day. They had no traction control or any other electronic aids, to make them steer better we used to add a sway bar at the rear which stiffened the suspension and caused the inner wheel to lift but also the car had no understeer. Seems like they have applied this same logic on the ED40.VW have always well engineered cars and this is no exception an this is why this is my 35th VW. I have also owned 4 x Porsches, 1 x Audi, 3 Hondas, 2 Subaru Libertys and the VW is excellent value for money.

[ringo]

I was fortunate enough to own two MK1 Golfs in the early 90's. Due to their unequal drive shaft lengths and other factors they torque steered very little, not like say a Mazda or Ford of that day. They had no traction control or any other electronic aids, to make them steer better we used to add a sway bar at the rear which stiffened the suspension and caused the inner wheel to lift but also the car had no understeer. Seems like they have applied this same logic on the ED40.VW have always well engineered cars and this is no exception an this is why this is my 35th VW. I have also owned 4 x Porsches, 1 x Audi, 3 Hondas, 2 Subaru Libertys and the VW is excellent value for money.

When you read such raving reviews about how the Cupra (290bhp - VAQ diff - focused suspension - MQB) and the Clubsport (based on 99% the same recipe) handle and put their power down around corners, to an extent that almost every FWD weakness has been eliminated, something which was considered impossible for such power/weight rations via FWD a few years back, then they must be doing something very right. Personally I think the MQB is a platform with much potential, one that when you throw the right pieces on it with a specific goal in mind, it just allows you to accomplish it without sacrificing as much comfort as you'd do in the past.

I know coming from a long time driving FWDs it sounds hard to accept in the begining, I hadn't until I test-drove one for myself and came back amazed that I could indeed make use of the entire 290bhp all of the time. To me, this is even more important than it is in a Megane RS. That car is more hard-core but at a price of driving friendliness and daily usability, you have to know how to drive it. The Clubsport will allow you to throw it almost mindlessly around corners without drama, floor it unbelievably early for a FWD, and yet you won't feel as that drive is your last one. It offers performance levels that can be unlocked by even the average driver and allows him to be pushing much more than he'd ever imagined.

[stark27]

Having lived with the Megane RS for nearly 3 years, I believe you've hit the nail on the head! Jumping in to the GTI, you can decide to drive it like a Megane at 10/10ths by the seat of your pants or you can treat it like a base model golf and shop around town without the ever-present urge of the Megane to treat it like your on a track.

And for this, Ive found what I wanted! So much so that I have cancelled my Focus RS order, as I believe this GTI will meet all my requirements in utter refinement, OR treat it like the dude in the second video. Just the sound wants to make me go and drive.

Wow. That's some high praise for the GTI 40 Brian. I was 60/40 GTI or R but i think you've pushed me up to 90/10 by the fact you cancelled your pre-order on a Focus RS that has more power and AWD (amongst other things).

I would never buy one myself because I just love DSG too much but it still swayed my bias towards the GTI over the R

[stark27]

A second hand R can be bought for under $50k where as the CS starts at $55k.

True but how much warranty is left on it and how many kms? I was thinking the same thing, found one for $47k with only 9000kms but it had basically no warranty left. No thanks.

[Bassik]

Golf 40th vs Golf R

True but how much warranty is left on it and how many kms? I was thinking the same thing, found one for $47k with only 9000kms but it had basically no warranty left. No thanks.

Well it depends. If you go to MY14 you'll be getting at least 1 year warranty. I'd rather go MY15-16 and get a solid 2 years at least.

Having driven both I do agree the ED40 can be treated as a beast and a casual driving experience. I do like that about it and it is super fun to drive. However for me I don't do that anymore. I like being able to do it at times but it's not key for me. Plus I haven't had an AWD car before so this is a definitely change for me.


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