MK7 Golf R versus...

[WhiteJames]

Pics: Rear Brakes Lights

The earlier link to the pics put up shows the difference between the GTI -v- PP GTI -v- R rear brake light clusters. Interesting to see that the Golf R brake lights are quite a bit darker than the PP GTI brake lights. All three vehicles are shown together in a couple of pics.

What didn’t surprise me with the Golf 7 R is that it is evident that the design of this type of vehicle suits the FWD Golf GTI, and lesser Golf range for that matter, as a FWD hatchback design from inception, with the Golf 7 R basically having extra AWD hardware & aggressive chassis and engine tunes as an after-thought.

What did surprise me was the amount of rawness that Volkswagen have tuned into the Golf 7 R. In particular, the turbo whoosh, and especially the suspension tune and lack of ride comfort. I was expecting a fast & very refined fast-hatchback. Instead, Volkswagen have produced a new generation Golf 7 R that is a bit raw in terms of engine sound and suspension tune. This brings the Golf 7 R closer to the harder core hot-hatches, notably the Renault Megane RS265.

With the preceding R32 and MK6 R, Volkswagen had pulled off that refined fast-hatchback theme perfectly. The Golf 7 R has that bit more rawness and edginess that is normally associated with aftermarket tuners that are always willing to forsake ride comfort, cabin NVH and extra turbine whistle that often comes with aftermarket products that do not have to meet OE specs for NVH. I’ve driven a few examples of the MK6 Golf R riding on 19” wheel/tyre package, but never experience the rawness and notably reduced ride comfort of R –v- GTI that the new Golf 7 R produces. The respective MK6 versions of the GTI –v- R were much closer in terms of ride comfort than the equivalent Golf 7 versions.

Another issue, perhaps not made explicitly earlier on, is that when accelerating in each Golf 7 vehicle from a standing start or rolling start, has the Golf 7 R tied down much more effectively, reducing the sensation of build forward thrust. In this respect, the Golf 7 R provided the sensation that is was slower than and less dramatic than the GTI in building speed; that is until you look at the speed-o-meter on the Golf 7 R.

The difference in torque between the two is not that great: 380Nm –v-350Nm between R –v- GTI … with R at 130 kgs weight disadvantage to lug around. The GTI, with its less focused & softer suspension tune, that causes the chassis to move around to a greater degree, was the Golf that always felt more urgent when pressing the loud pedal. I’m sure that the Golf R was the quicker of the two, but the GTI always felt more urgent and for day to day driving, the difference may not be as stark as official figures may suggest.

The Golf 7 R being so hunkered down and grippy, the Golf R would need a good deal of engine tuning to feel as urgent as the GTI for rolling responsiveness. On the other hand, you can tell that the GTI has been purposefully held back to aid FWD grip levels for a improved and cohesive overall package. I think this is evident in the sticky feeling throttle of the GTI and slower build up of power, but perhaps not torque. I cannot see the Golf 7 R winning any driver engagement accolades.

If only I had the time to conduct another Golf R –v- Audi S3 review of GTI –v- PP GTI review. I sent the review to Ray to read to see if my thoughts had any bearing on his decision to stick with the Golf 7 R as opposed to the GTI, GTI PP or Audi S3. He still sticking with an intent to move into a Golf 7 R well or fully optioned for around 57K … and why wouldn’t he … as he only has a 20min commute to work just out of the Sutherland Shire, where the roadways are not so bad, doesn’t have a family to cart around, very rarely drives long trips interstate and has a preference for options and sporty big wheels, so the rawer, stiffer and terser ride of the Golf 7 R may not trouble Ray as much as some others. I guess the Golf 7 R will suit his tastes to a tee.

WJ

[Dutch77]

I think it's good that VW has provided some differentiation between the models.

The GTI is more than enough for most and I am definitely after the refinement aspects - that's why I'm not concerned by the ongoing media reports of the GTI being a little clinical compared to some rivals. Leave the hardcore stuff to the R for people who either want that, or intend to modify more heavily and need AWD to get that power down (or who just have to have the R because it's top of the range).

[AdamD]

What did surprise me was the amount of rawness that Volkswagen have tuned into the Golf 7 R. In particular, the turbo whoosh, and especially the suspension tune and lack of ride comfort. I was expecting a fast & very refined fast-hatchback. Instead, Volkswagen have produced a new generation Golf 7 R that is a bit raw in terms of engine sound and suspension tune. This brings the Golf 7 R closer to the harder core hot-hatches, notably the Renault Megane RS265.

When you think about it, this decision by VW (to adjust the focus of the R somewhat) makes good sense from a product placement perspective. The GTI and (to a lesser extent) GTI PP both offer a refined everyman's performance hatch experience; if the R applied the same formula (as it did with the Mk6), there'd be less to differentiate the product in the range, and VW wouldn't have a fast Golf to appeal to those looking for a more hardcore performance offering. If you read the UK and European reviews of the car, it's been very well received in its new guise - especially considering the generally-better quality of their road surfaces where a harsh ride is less of a problem.

This fits in well with VWA's new strategy with options as well. You can't spec a Mk7 R highly at all (still povvo-spec headunit and audio, no aesthetic add-ons, no better leather, etc etc), which likely suits the target market and the car's more singular focus.

Bear in mind the R will still be some way off the Megane in overall performance focus. The super-racy end of the market is a very limited one in terms of volumes, and while many are glad the RS265 exists, few are actually prepared to buy one and live with it every day - for good reason.

In Australia, we've got it good from a buying perspective - there is now the full compliment of cars available, and if we want something more akin to the previous R in terms of comfort, refinement and spec, there's the excellent (and bargain) Audi S3. Which is likely where my money will be going this time round.

[WhiteJames]

Wheels Magazine (May 14) Golf GTI -v- R review:

R: 8/10
PP GTI: 9/10
GTI: 9/10

Wheels article mirrors my views exactly re: GTI -v- R.

[WhiteJames]

Is the PP GTI the 'Real McCoy'?

Referring to the Wheels Magazine (May 2014) review of the R-v- PP GTI : It’s important to note that the journos are saying the same thing as I re: Golf R. That is that the Golf 7 R losses a lot of that fluid type of chassis balance and consequent driver involvement. Instead, the Golf R chassis is tied & hunkered down in a more race car like manner, making it more rough around the edges on the public roadway. Wheels are also indicating that perhaps the firm ride of the Golf R may be a bit too much for every day use on crap AUS roadways.

Bear in mind that Wheels Magazine is a bit more conservative in its approach to vehicle reviews, reflecting the mind-set of the average Joe, as opposed to other publications that focus on the hard core enthusiast. It may not surprise me that the harder core publications (EVO, Motor Mag) would give the GTI –v- R win to the R, but putting a low weight on the firm Golf R ride comfort & overlooking the raw edginess in chassis tune that feels to be aftermarket.

‘Kudos to those that have purchased a Golf GTI – PP’

Early reviews are saying that the GTI-PP is the pick of the three sporting Golf’s (GTI, GTI – PP and R) as the best compromise between performance –v- comfort and driver engagement. Pity it doesn’t come in a manual. Here’s a motoring.com.au review that gives the nod to the GTI – PP … makes me it bit envious in a way:

Volkswagen Golf GTI Performance 2014 Review - motoring.com.au

It’s not all bad for the Golf R … it seems that the harder core hatchbacks become … morphing into super-fast hatchbacks, the less they inspire from a driver involvement and ride comfort perspective. They seem to fit the bill perfectly if you’re a rozzer chasing armed felons in stolen high performance vehicles. Here’s an autoexpress.co.uk review that has the Golf R on top of the Merc A45 AMG and Audi RS-Q3:

Volkswagen Golf R vs mega-hatch rivals | Auto Express

WJ

[Jimi]

A few wrong facts in that first article (eg it suggests the PP is 15mm lower than the normal GTI which it isn't - they're both 15mm lower than a std golf)

[gandv]

GTI or Golf R … or something else?
A GTI or maybe an R has been on my mind for a while to replace my nice but un-exhilarating Comfortline FSI. We have a V6 CC my wife drives to work, which I really like. I like the refinement, its immediate smooth easy go, the heaps of features it has and good options. I want a new Golf or hatch to mirror the enjoyment I get from the CC. So I’ve been test driving:- a Merc A45 AMG; Merc A250; GTI, GTI-Performance; Golf R and an Audi S3, manual & DSG. In order of the drives: -

● Merc A45 AMG Auto (Fire breathing Dragon) – It’s quick and although it’s pricey, it has almost everything already standard equipment, even a sunroof, no options needed & circa $85K retail drive away. And in the boot it has its own compressor and tyre repair pack – which is confidence building for travelling at night, miles from anywhere – or not. With 3 on board, the suspension was very firm but at least it appeared to handle bumps without a severe jolt. Although there might be optional settings otherwise - I didn’t like the way some of the features worked, like the rear parking sensor lights don’t make a sound initially and you have to see them via the rear view mirror – bit hard when you want to look at the camera. Considering the dealership requires a $10,000 accident excess it was a worry. Anyway I digress.
Everything about the A45 drive was harsh, and loud. Pushing the A45, the noise between 1^st and 2nd sounded like the exhaust had fallen off – it, however was “popping” from the exhaust. My GTI driver son was with me too, (and for the next four drives) we both came to a similar conclusion – Way too harsh and loud for normal around town enjoyment, but an interesting car.

● A GTI with leather: hard to find one with fabric seats; I’m not a fan of the tartan. The GTI was ok, but strangely disappointing – probably because of my inflated expectations. We (2 up) drove around Botany, sounds like the same route as you WhiteJames. I was hoping for a little more refinement, I thought the road noise was fairly loud. Also the traction from front wheel drive is a concern for me, particularly getting away in the wet, although the GTI traction is pretty impressive, all things considered. The leather in this one felt quite stiff.

● An Audi S3 manual – Red with S Performance pack. Again with 4 up, but this car felt good. A little more refined than the previous cars too, although at low revs and full throttle (only something you’d get with a manual) it wasn’t always super sweet. I thought the manual was nice, but not for me, but it will be my son’s choice for him. The manual gearbox was super nice; (if only you could buy a DSG with a clutch to have real manual experiences now and then). The Audi doesn’t have the inclusions that VW typically has in their basic specs, like adaptive dampers (Magnetic ride), a backseat arm rest (Load through facility) auto hold (Hold assist) as on the CC and lots more), so some care is needed to make sure you get what you want. S3 demonstrators are hard to find, it took 4 days to arrange to drive this one.

● A GTI-Performance: from a different dealer, also with leather. I’m not sure why but with relatively normal driving I thought this was perhaps a little better than the GTI. With 4 up, only a little laggy, it still felt light and nimble, and still felt good and had reasonable go with all that load. Still somewhat harsher than I’d like, but I accept, this is not how most people would judge it. Set to Comfort suspension it wasn’t bad at all around town.

● Merc A250. Although overpriced it does have good inclusions and good options at good prices, e.g. leather is a lot cheaper than on the Golfs’. This drive was in the damp, so traction was very ordinary and a lot of fuss and bother with wheel spin and axle tramp. No subtle quick get-a-ways. The twin clutch auto is just not up to VW standard. It doesn’t get it right, slow changes, holding gears too long etc. It felt quite a bit slower than the GTI too, but may not be. For some drivers, this car could be a good choice, but not for me.

● Audi S3 DSG, Red with S Performance pack. This car took about a week to arrange and was trucked out from Audi Australia. My wife and I took this one for a longer drive. I used “Individual” with comfort settings for suspension and motor noise, but auto or sport for everything else. It was generally impressive, only a little lag, and the feel and power were very addictive; the Quattro means it just goes; no fuss, no bother. It may not have the characteristics that some car journo’s rave about, but for enjoyable driving in normal situations, it was good. Including going around suburban streets and even without exceeding speed limits (well not by much), the car felt really responsive, and even with just a little squirts – it was fun. Still, not up to the CC refinement and more road noise than I’d like. I don’t like the pops between gear changes with the DSG, (even if everyone else does) but there you go. The steering wheel is very thick, and might take a while to get used to. The ride is OK with the 18” wheels. The optional B&O sound system sounds good, it’ san $1150 option. I quite liked this car. I just needed to check my perceptions of it against the R when it arrives.

● Golf R with Leather – 3 up. Finally Saturday 12th release date and a test drive, but not before the sales manager extolled its virtues – the 6R was good but this one is on a whole new level, he said. Sitting in the R is nice and the blue sill and dash lighting is a nice touch. Immediately into the drive - with the salesperson driving quietly out of the street, I thought the interior noise was disturbing. It didn’t get any better, and with slow driving I really felt the coarseness and the noise resonating inside the cabin. Taking off hard but not flooring it, from an inside lane with traffic, the car was particularly laggy and reticent – still I’m sure this in not a real reflection – it was a very new 200 km on the clock car that maybe hasn’t learnt yet. I wasn’t as so aware of the ride negatives, not because they weren’t there, more because I was stunned that this car was no where near what I wanted it to be and didn’t try anymore: and I completely accept WhiteJames’s comments. The May “Wheels” summary might be about right. More - I couldn’t find any seat tilt adjustment, and all “7R”s come with tinted rear windows, like it or not. The 5.8” screen really looks small, and the 19” wheels? I like the S3’s 18”, thanks.


Re the S3 versus a Golf - Price wise, the S3 is quite a bit dearer particularly when you add the options that generally VW supply as standard. But at least you do get good other good standard inclusions, which would bring the price of the R to a much closer figure – if you could option them on the R. This includes Nappa leather with electric adjustment including a seat tilt, but no memories, and a good quality large screen, with a nice rise action out of the dash (not a touch screen). If you get the $5000 S Performance Package it includes different quilted nappa leather S sport seats that loose the electric control, but still have a seat tilt.

Immediately after the R test drive, I ordered the S3

[Ohmang]

WhiteJames, after driving it how do you think it compares to a GTI on 18's with no adaptive chassis control. My MK6 is a bumpy ride and I am considering upgrading to the R.

Edit: Do you think the hard ride issue could be solved by putting some 18 inch wheels on it?

[WhiteJames]

Golf R-v- Audi S3

gandv's review is noteworthy as sometimes the forums can be dominated by the harder core types with the sole objective of posting great stats rather than the overall whole package as an ownership proposition. In addition to gandv's noteworthy review:

I anticipate that the Manual Transmission Golf 7 R would be about 15-20 kgs lighter in the front end. Using the Golf GTI as an example: the front springs in the Manual Transmission Golf 7 R may be slightly softer, improving the ride comfort and throttle adjustability of the Golf 7 R with M-Trans. Wait and see I guess. I noted a similar thing between the M-Trans and DSG suspension tunes in the Golf 7 GTI, where the front springs in the M-Trans appear to be slightly softer, making the chassis a bit more fluid with added driver involvement. I'd still like to take the Golf 7 R on a Boat Shed run back to back with a Golf 7 GTI, as I think that the Golf 7 R may fare better around the hilly-tight-twisties on softer but better quality bitumen roadways.

I understand that the M'Trans in all Golf variants: GTI, Golf R and Audi S3, have longer gearing. This may affect the turbo spooling response time re: turbo lag. The DSG in both the Golf 7 GTI and 7 R does a much better job of masking the turbo lag at low revs in higher gears.

My sentiments are that the Golf 7 R, albeit a faster vehicle than the GTI, never felt that crisp or urgent in its responses compared to the lighter GTI. I think that gandv's review may of picked up on the fact that the Audi may feel more alert and crisp in it's acceleration and change of direction due to less weight, esp over the front end of the Audi S3 where most of the weight generally is. The Audi has alloy bonnet, front quarter panels, lower sub-frame and suspension strut cups I's told. The suspension in the Audi would therefore be tuned to reflect the lighter weight of the vehicle, while maintaining the same performance & agility as that of the Golf 7 R.

The Golf 7 R is fast, but always feels sluggish, like it over-tyred compared to the lighter & more darty Golf 7 GTI. The GTI is carrying a higher level of overall grip levels due to its lighter weight, whereas the Golf 7 has a larger tyre footprint, stiffer chassis and AWD to aid grip levels, which would help in the wet, but in the dry I think the lighter weight wins out for driver feel and outright steady state grip levels, although not balance front to rear in the GTI.

The added noise in the Golf 7 R comes from a combination of the larger diameter wheels & less tyre profile to a small degree, the shorter stiffer suspension more notably to a higher degree. I found that my VW Sports Driver Gear Springs in the MK6 GTI were providing the same tendency to add a bit of extra noise in their compression phase compared to the stock GTI springs.

Ironically, I cannot help but feel that maybe Volkswagen saved on some sound deadening in the Golf 7 R to save weight, creating a bit of extra noise into the cabin, whereas Audi S3 has the luxury of using more expensive lighter alloys to save weight. It is apparent to me, without driving the Audi S3, that Volkswagen had only a certain budget to improve the Golf 7 R in respect to the performance -v- refinement equation. I may well be incorrect in assuming this, and Volkswagen may just be targeting the market that caters for the STI and EVO X crowd, but reviews of the Merc A45 AMG seem to be similar re: lack of refinement due to harder core performance.

It is very difficult to get any Volkswagen on the older MKV and MK6 platform to ride well as the chassis wheelbase is shorter and the motor hangs out over the front further than the new Golf 7 MQB platform as the suspension tuning has to be firmer due to higher CoG of the smaller footprint. I had the opportunity to drive an early model Tiguan basic spec from Sutherland to City/Eastern Suburbs one day, and do the same route the other day in my Golf 7 GTI. The Golf 7 GTI on 18" wheels rode better than the Tiguan on small wheels and very large tyres … who would've guessed.

This reflects the improvement in the Golf 7 range ride comfort, with exception of the Golf 7 R, which is a weapon for performance stats and AWD grip levels, but a notch or two backwards in ride comfort and cabin NVH. The new Golf 7 R will no doubt decimate the previous MK6 Golf R on any type of roadway or track and you can definitely feel that the Golf 7 R is lighter & better balanced than the outgoing MK6 R.

The ride in the MK6 Golf GTI was always lumpy on rough roadways (with or without DCC) and did display incessant bobbing up and down with roadway patter, esp. on harder concrete roadways. The new Golf 7 GTI eliminated this MK6 trait, but the Golf 7 R reintroduces the patter in the quest for supreme suspension and chassis control.

WJ

[WhiteJames]

WhiteJames, after driving it how do you think it compares to a GTI on 18's with no adaptive chassis control. My MK6 is a bumpy ride and I am considering upgrading to the R. Edit: Do you think the hard ride issue could be solved by putting some 18 inch wheels on it?

I think that the Golf R is about the same or slightly less firm in terms of roadway patter i.e. bobbing up and down incessantly over small concrete waves & undulations … basically the secondary ride low speed compression damping. As stated before, the new MQB Golf 7 has made leaps & bounds in terms of improvement in the low speed secondary ride control due to larger chassis footprint and having the motor further rearwards in the chassis, requiring less aggressive damping/spring rates for a lower CoG imo.

On bigger primary compression hits i.e. deeper concrete expansion joints between concrete slabs, the Golf 7 R is definitely firmer than the preceding MK6 Golf GTI (with or without DCC). The Golf 7 R is sort of heading towards a MKV/MK6 Golf GTI fitted with coil overs, excellent chassis body control with short & sharp responses to roadway crevices, divots, potholes & patchwork … a bit like a blood-hound ferreting dipping and diving into all the small dips & holes in the roadway. In this respect: The preceding MK6 Golf GTI sits between the new Golf 7 GTI and Golf 7 R for ride comfort around town imo … with the MK6 Golf GTI being closer to the Golf 7 R than the 7 GTI. The advantage of the Golf 7 R is that it is much more direct to the point that its a potent machine for raw speed and cornering, just a bit disconnected & anodyne in terms of outright driver feel. It's always difficult to mask excess weight in any machine.

I seriously doubt that going down to 18" wheel/tyre combination will improve ride to any great degree. The 235mm tyre on the 19" wheel on the Golf 7 R does feel as if it gives a bit in cornering, rolling around the rim edges more than the 225mm tyre that is fitted to the GTI. I doubt 225mm on 18" wheel will provide any added ride comfort … most of the terse ride comfort is in the springs, dampers and sways bars on the Golf 7 R. The GTI - PP has to run much higher air pressure in the tyre apparently (41psi -v- 38psi) over the standard GTI. I imagine that a similar 18" tyre to the Std GTI with greater min load rating for the heavier Golf 7 R would be quite stiff (remember GTI carries 130kgs less on its tyres). Best to venture the Golf 7 R test drive on some rougher roadways … then drive the GTI-PP on the same route to satisfy yourself. If I was a travelling salesman driving around Sydney all-day every-day, I'd be going for the more comfort orientated GTI's.

WJ

[WhiteJames]

For you hard-core types: be in no rush to pay top-dollar for a newly released Golf 7 R. Something better with Carbon Fibre awaits in the not to distant future:

Volkswagen reveals Golf R400 mega-hatch | Autocar

WJ

[Paul_R]

For you hard-core types: be in no rush to pay top-dollar for a newly released Golf 7 R. Something better with Carbon Fibre awaits in the not to distant future:

Volkswagen reveals Golf R400 mega-hatch | Autocar

WJ

Very (pleasantly) surprised to see it has a manual transmission! Looks fantastic. Wonder how much it'll cost? I'll need to add $2000 to the price as I doubt Audi will give me my deposit back! I fear though it will be, dare I say it, too hard core for me.

[WhiteJames]

ESC: Is the undefeatable ESC in the PP - GTI holding it back?

Wheels Magazine (May 2014) suggest that the Golf 7 R does not feel as crisp or communicative in the driver’s hands as that of the Golf GTI – PP and that a well driven PP –GTI would have no drama keeping pace with a Golf 7 R in dry conditions around demanding roadways.

Autoexpress.co.uk put the Seat Leon Cupra R –v- Golf 7 R around a short narrow closed track and find that the Seat Leon Cupra R is the faster and more engaging of the two, describing the Golf 7 R's lower speed change of direction as feeling 'lazy' … see autoexpress.co.uk video review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tgdtVhQzJM

Ironically: On a different day, autoexpress.co.uk also run a GTI – PP around the same track, albeit in manual form, and find that the GTI – PP clocks a time of about 0.16 sec slower than the Golf 7 R DSG. Interesting thing is that the tester reckons that he could go even quicker in the PP GTI if he could completely disable the ESC stability control. See autoexpress.co.uk video review of GTI – PP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5hZwUuFX5A

My question is: If that ESC was fully defeat able in the PP - GTI, would the PP – GTI clock a faster time than the Golf 7 R? It may well be possible on a short narrow track, perhaps not a faster flowing open track with long straights. Even then, Wheels Quarter mile test of the Golf 7 R and GTI – PP has the PP – GTI seriously gaining on the Golf 7 R by the 400 metre market in terms of speed.

If I was to purchase the Golf 7 R, I’d be budgeting for a set of comforts/sports Koni FSD dampers to smooth out the ride comfort of the Golf R. Having DCC as standard fitment for the sports model Golf's makes adding aftermarket passive dampers that much more difficult as of lot of the DCC is intertwined with the driver’s central infortainment display. The standard Golf dampers are reasonable good for OE stuff, but the Koni FSD would another notch up for handing and quality feel as a premium aftermarket damper.

The perplexing thing I find, as does Wheels Magazine and Auto Express (UK) Magazine, is that there is little benefit to be gained in performance of the Golf 7 R in relation to the degradation of ride comfort on the Golf 7 R. Given the cheaper price of the PP – GTI and that fact that many will not completely disable ESC stability for public roadway use, makes a convincing argument for the PP – GTI being the ‘Real McCoy’ as the ultimate Sports Golf.

WJ

[CT69]

Or it would be, if it came in a manual.....

[WhiteJames]

Thermal Dynamics: GTI -v- R

Appears that the PP - GTI and Audi S3 may be the two dark horses in the Volkswagen-Audi sports hatchback line-up, with the PP - GTI punching above its weight and the Audi S3 looking like it offers a better blend of refinement/performance mix than the coarser, rawer and more edgy Golf R.

Here's a couple of reviews from car advice.com.au re: PP - GTI and Golf R.

GTI - PP: 9.0/10
R: 8.5/10

PP - GTI
Volkswagen Golf GTI Performance Review | CarAdvice

Golf R
2014 Volkswagen Golf R Review | CarAdvice

Can't leave out the base model GTI Manual Trans version also with good reviews, this time from go auto.com:

STD GTI
2013 Volkswagen Golf GTI 5-dr hatch | GoAuto - Our Opinion

Thermal Dynamics:

I checked the oil temps towards the end of the Golf GTI -v- Golf R review around Mascot. The GTI was 109 degrees and the R was 110 degrees in oil temp. This was expected and is within the normal range of oil temps, as the Golf 7 second generation EA888 motor is designed to run with hotter oil temps to reduce internal friction loss … helps the motors rev cleaner and faster.

WJ