TPI 202389711 / 20237383 Rough Idle at start-up

[regu]

Hi,

I have been searching for the content of TPI 202389711 and 20237383 because my 90TSI is rough idling and misfiring when I start the engine in the morning (the first 15-20 second). At the last 45k service I mentioned this and VW keep the car overnight but could not find a fault. The explanation I got is that this is normal and is called....."The morning shake"....

I also have parted with 5 Euros of my hard earned cash and logged into ERWIN to search but got no results.
I got however the workshop and maintenance manuals (both several hundered pages) in PDF (in German).

I would appreciate it if someone could share some info regarding those TPI's so I might be able to get VW to have another look.

Thanks.

Regu

[Guest001]

Hi,

I have been searching for the content of TPI 202389711 and 20237383 because my 90TSI is rough idling and misfiring when I start the engine in the morning (the first 15-20 second). At the last 45k service I mentioned this and VW keep the car overnight but could not find a fault. The explanation I got is that this is normal and is called....."The morning shake"....

I also have parted with 5 Euros of my hard earned cash and logged into ERWIN to search but got no results.
I got however the workshop and maintenance manuals (both several hundered pages) in PDF (in German).

I would appreciate it if someone could share some info regarding those TPI's so I might be able to get VW to have another look.

Thanks.

Regu

You must have got on the wrong page as all mine I got are in English

[buzuki]

perfectly normal, its the cold start phase. timing and fueling are drastically changed to warm car quickly

[LeeMan]

Hi

I have a 2009 Golf TSI Manual and over the last few months's it has been progressing getting worse on cold starts. I've had the car over 3 and half years now and this coughing and sputtering is not "normal". Car coughs / splutters; tacho needle jumps up and down 500 to 1500 rpm; sounds like it's about to stall. You can't "just get in and drive it because it hesitates when you accelerate. Doesn't happen other than in the morning.
I logged an email with VGA and Inchcape when I tried getting a service booking and was told I had to wait 5 weeks. Both these groups called me back and have been very responsive. I have my car in next wed now, so waiting to see what the problem is. My concern is it can be anything from coils to injector and / or maybe something major. Car has done less than 40k. Don't drive it hard at all. Always serviced when due. Did raise at last service but was told it was something to do with my oil.....
Anyway fingere crossed.

[regu]

Thank you all for the responses.

No problem with the manuals being in German.

The misfire / sputter is not normal as it has developed over time and got worse. It's defenitely not just the cold start run.

LeeMan keep me updated on your progress.

Cheers,
regu

[LeeMan]

Hi

The guys at Northshore Volkswagen have been able to recreate the problem-yay. I left it there very early in the morning to give it as much time as possible before the place opened so that it could simulate the cold start problem. Ran diagnostics. Sent results over to HO-Germany I presume. Advice was to remove the head. Seems that problem could be carbon build up causing one (?) of the valves to stick when cold starting.
I've only done <37k in the car and it seems that the car doesn't cope well with short hops. I have lodged question with VW Aust and Inchcape as I believe that the car should be able to cope with this - other cars do. My wife has a Mazda 3 and she drives very few Klms daily, yet it just keeps going and it's 4 years old with 44k mileage.
Re: going to Inchcape, it is because I have the Inchcape extended warranty. Hoping that one or more parties comes to the view that maybe they can help me with $$$ to get the car fixed. Doesn't seem right somehow. It's not in any manual or advice. I had assumed that servicing at VW would cover for this contingency if it is a known problem. Other than this the car is great so it's annoying when this happens.
Will update when I hear more.

[regu]

Thanks for the update.

I was thinking about carbon build-up as well as i am not doing huge k's either. The car is late 2009 build and I have 45k on the clock. Unfortunately, I am out of warranty and don't have an extended one.

Anyone have any experience with clean out of carbon build-up (blasting vs chem cleaner)?

Thanks
regu

[will86_]

Thanks for the update.

I was thinking about carbon build-up as well as i am not doing huge k's either. The car is late 2009 build and I have 45k on the clock. Unfortunately, I am out of warranty and don't have an extended one.

Anyone have any experience with clean out of carbon build-up (blasting vs chem cleaner)?

Thanks
regu

Ive seen in other forums, people use the Subaru upper engine cleaner to help remove some of the carbon build up. I have yet to try this but will be doing it some time soon as I suspect my car has a lot of carbon build up.

[Lucas_R]

I wouldn't think you would have too much carbon build up with only 45,000km, but you never know i guess.

The crushed walnut shell blasting is a much faster process than the chemical cleaning. Once the inlet manifold is off and you have access to the inlet valves, the walnut shell blasting (using a purpose built machine) seems to only take a few minutes for each cylinder. There are a lot of videos on YouTube etc showing this method of cleaning being used on BMW engines (current 335i and Mini engines in particular).

The chemical cleaning is a much slower process, but apparently is a more thorough way to clean the valves. Some of the chemicals need to be left on the valves for hours to loosen/break down the carbon.

In the short term, you might want to try a can or two or the Subaru upper engine cleaner (generally about $15-20 a can). You need to find a vacuum source on your inlet manifold in order to spray it in. On the GTI and R engines, there is a air temp probe at the front of the inlet manifold which is very easy to access and remove (1x bolt holding it on). This is where i spray it in on my car. Not sure if the 90TSI engines have the air temp probe in a similar spot, but might be worth checking.


1) Locate the air temp sensor on the front of the inlet manifold. It has 1x torx screw holding it in. (i have already removed the screw in this pic).



2) Remove the temp sensor.



3) Give the can a good shake and spray approx 1/2 the can into the manifold. Let it sit for 5 mins or so.

Thanks for the update.

I was thinking about carbon build-up as well as i am not doing huge k's either. The car is late 2009 build and I have 45k on the clock. Unfortunately, I am out of warranty and don't have an extended one.

Anyone have any experience with clean out of carbon build-up (blasting vs chem cleaner)?

Thanks
regu

[UKV]

...
I have been searching for the content of TPI 202389711 and 20237383
...

There are TPI's content:

Technical product information
Transaction No.: 2023897/1

Engine: erratic idle speed, rattling noises from engine
Release date: 18-Aug-2010

Customer statement / workshop findings
• The engine runs erratically at idle speed and up to 2000 rpm. There may also be noises in the cylinder head area.
No entry is logged in the engine control unit.

Technical background
• The roller valve lever is not in the correct position. As a result it can jam or jump out.

Production change
• Optimised production

Measure
• Check the idle speed rest control of cylinder 1-4 via the guided functions. With deviations of +2mg/h per cylinder, remove the cylinder head cover. Check whether the roller valve levers of the affected cylinder are in the correct position.
• With fallen-out or broken levers check the complete valve drive for consequential damage.

...

Technical product information
Transaction No.: 2023738/6

Engine: erratic idle speed after cold start, entry on misfiring
Release date: 23-Apr-2012

Customer statement / workshop findings

Customer statement:
• Erratic idle speed after cold start.

Workshop findings:
• Erratic idle speed after cold start.
• Entries on misfiring.

Technical background
Software adjustment in the engine control unit.

Production change
—

Measure
Update the software of the engine control unit.

Update the software of the engine control unit according to TPI 2027485 and start with point 3. The preceding instructions can, in this case, be ignored.

...

NB
Referenced TPI 2027485 is here:

https://disk.yandex.ru/public/?hash=t1RdNr/lS1Il5smY6QhKXB53zKhrv4uDd3oZp91EM1w%3D&ncrnd=3112

(archive, 173 KB)

[LeeMan]

Got my car back on Friday – 3 days as Northshore needed to send diagnostic results to VW HO and then test under cold start conditions.

Took the car on a long run on the M1 as recommended by Vince (Northshore). Car had upper engine carbon clean and was allowed to soak overnight. Seems problem may have been more with carbon build up on piston rather than on valves. Soaking overnight gave it a better chance to do it’s job.

So far all good. Coughing and sputtering has gone away. Car seems more responsive. Car is smoother.

Vince also suggested that I get upper engine carbon clean done at time of service and also to add some fuel additive cleaner in between services. He has come across similar problem with Subaru’s.

I have been a watcher on the forum for 3 years now and I often see some negative comments re: responsiveness from VGA on service issues. I can only speak on my experience
1. VGA and Inchcape both responded promptly when I raised my concern. They facilitated the booking in of the car and also assisted with the cost (covered the cost of the discovery and fix).
2. Northshore Volkswagen (Ryan and Vince) both rang and arranged earliest possible convenient time to look at the problem. Vince handled my problem. Was professional, keep communication up to let me know status and then took time to explain problem when I came to pick the car up.
I certainly feel that VW owners should raise problems with dealer and VGA if required and let them have an opportunity to review / resolve. You never know it could turn out to be a great result. And no I don’t work for VW. It’s just that the Golf is a great car. I think VW's focus on improving Customer experience is going to take some time but we should give them a chance.

[regu]

Thanks guys for all the info. I will get some of that Subaru cleaner stuff and try myself.