MOTOR Hot Tuner Challenge

[Banzai]

Banzai - do you happen to go by the same name on the LotusTalk forums?

If you mean the American-based forum, no. Someone else got it before me. I do use that name on various Australian and British forums.

[REXman]

Gotta say guys, $34,000 for mods to a stock R, a 13 sec car, that turns it into a high 12s is just ridiculous IMHO. Sorry but blew me away how overpriced that is. You buy a GTR or wrx or 200sx, or SS even and for 10K you really get moving.

is this what all modern tuners charge?

[MACCAA]

Gotta say guys, $34,000 for mods to a stock R, a 13 sec car, that turns it into a high 12s is just ridiculous IMHO. Sorry but blew me away how overpriced that is. You buy a GTR or wrx or 200sx, or SS even and for 10K you really get moving.

is this what all modern tuners charge?

Standing start acceleration figures are a bit like Dyno numbers-different by the day.
The grip at the Drag Strip at Eastern Creek is such that it's almost impossible to launch a 4wd car without destroying it.
The APR Golf R is a seriously quick piece of kit-I've done more miles in it than anyone and it's mega.
Check out it's speed on the straight compared to the big KW cars.....
Seriously,it's so much faster than a stock R that it's not funny.
In the real world ther's nothing under $100k that could touch it.
Last year the modified R35 GTR in the Tuner Challenge did 11.75 for the 400metres.
I've been in a stock one that did 11.9 at Oran Park.
Unfortunately the Drag Strip at Eastern Creek is like a dyno-only good for comparing cars on the day.
Also you have to remember that the cars are set up for the circuit and most are on semis.
They're not allowed to be changed during the event.
This certainly inhibits their performance on the Drag Strip.
The fact that the Golf R was the fastest car of all on the track says it all for it's combination of modifications.

[Corey_R]

I haven't seen the article yet, but do they break down the mods REXman? If not, I'd be having a think about the bigger picture before having a go at someone. The "Stage III" kit for the R is only $11,250 with the only other expense REQUIRED for that kit being a divorced downpipe for $2495.

However, with that much of a power and torque increase (315kW / 515Nm), you'd probably want (and possibly even required by law in various states and territories) to also upgrade the suspension and brakes, which itself will add another $9k+ depending on the type used (I believe it was Alcon brakes and Cross Suspension, which means just over $9k for them).

I wouldn't be able to tell you the break-down of the other $11,155, but I know from the pictures around the place that there was also:
Cat back exhaust (attached to the divorced downpipe already discussed above)
APR Intercooler
Sachs Racing Clutch
Sachs Racing Flywheel
New Sway bays front and rear
New wheels + Tyres
Labour
Probably other things which I haven't picked up from the pictures....

In addition, not everything is about going in a straight line. In fact, going in a straight line wasn't even a consideration based on the car being setup for the track at the compromise of straight line tests. There was also the obvious "manual" vs DSG issue which is also a detriment to straight line times, yet many still prefer for the track.

So anyway - just look a bit deeper before making negative blanket statements about "all modern tuners"


Edit: Ooh, MACCAA was typing his post whilst I was typing mine.
WOW - the R was the fastest on the track? Is that just in its category, or of all of them? Either way, that's way impressive

[Guy_H]

REXman, Quote from Motor Magazine about the Golf R:

"It Simply wiped the floor with everything else that turned up on the day"

P.S - the cost of the cars total in the Euro category:

Rennenhaus TSi - Least expensive:
APR GTI next
APR R next
Peak S3 next
Evolve 135i next
Scirocco R most expensive.

Hell, even in our category, we were not even in the top 3 most expensive - I would call that pretty good bang for your buck personally!

[Corey_R]

Gotta say guys, $34,000 for mods to a stock R, a 13 sec car, that turns it into a high 12s is just ridiculous IMHO. Sorry but blew me away how overpriced that is. You buy a GTR or wrx or 200sx, or SS even and for 10K you really get moving.

is this what all modern tuners charge?

Lol... I just picked up the magazine. It's ok guys, I'm SURE that REXman is just ****-stirring

The two WRX's cost more to buy (MSRP$61,990) and more to mod ($43,601 & $49,528 ) for total costs of $105,591 and $111,518 - and yet they were both beaten around the track by the Golf R AND the Golf GTI!!!
The Golf GTI is MSRP$40,490 plus $24,395 of mods and the R is MSRP$49,990 plus $34,100 of mods for a total of $64,885 and $84,090 respectively.

And when I say beaten.... I mean SMAAAAASSSSSHED. Spending $21,501 more on a Suburu STI instead of a Golf R means you're 8.5 seconds slower per lap! Spending $27,428 more on a Suburu STI instead of a Golf R means you're still 4.4 seconds slower per lap!

Compared to the GTI it just looks worse for the Subaru fans.... Spending $40,706 more to get the STI leaves you 6.9 seconds slower per lap, and spending a whopping $46,633 more on the STI still only brings you to being 2.8 seconds slower than the GTI.

$46,633 enough to buy you a 2nd GTI!
(Neither Evo X beat the GTI either btw...)

[AdamD]

And when I say beaten.... I mean SMAAAAASSSSSHED.

That's an incredible result. Congratulations Guy_H - fantastic work! Hopefully this brings in plenty of new customers to APR!

[MurphyTheElf]

REXman, Quote from Motor Magazine about the Golf R:

"It Simply wiped the floor with everything else that turned up on the day"

OK, it wiped the floor with everything in the Eastern Creek lap time.

The braking for both APR cars were midrange at best, despite an 11k+ outlay on suspension, brakes, wheels and tyres. Six piston calipers should shuffle you up the order for next time. The fact that most of the Aussie sedans, some outweighing the R by 400kg, can be hauled up in a shorter distance is testament to their brake packages.

The biggest concern is that both cars have lot of trouble getting their power on the ground - all the rear wheel drives and all but one Japanese car heavily outperformed both the R and the GTI (the latter being more understandable) in the 0-100km/h sprint.

The only places the APR cars outshone the crowd was high speed cornering and overall lap time. Impressive, but completely irrelevant on the street, where braking and low-speed performance is of utmost importance. The rest of the performance was mid-range at best, highlighted in their overall 12th and 14th positions out of 18 cars.

I think we can take away the fact that the Golf chassis and the APR suspension mods are fantastic, the tuneability of the engine is brilliant, but the clutch and diff may be weak points and the ever-present electronic aids are a real thorn in the side.

Guy.... bring on the DSG, and turn off those damn ESP and XDL programs!

[oshuyi]

apr stage 1 for roughly $1700 is a much better option for street use and in a DSG golf R i'm sure it'll do high 12s
all these other mods are pretty irrelevant esp if you're not going to track ur car.

[dave_r]

Guy.... bring on the DSG, and turn off those damn ESP and XDL programs!

If stage 1 enables the 100% disabling of the ESP program when the button is used, then I'll have mine flashed on day 1!

[Corey_R]

The braking for both APR cars were midrange at best, despite an 11k+ outlay on suspension, brakes, wheels and tyres. Six piston calipers should shuffle you up the order for next time. The fact that most of the Aussie sedans, some outweighing the R by 400kg, can be hauled up in a shorter distance is testament to their brake packages.

Both the APR GTI and R had 4 piston Alcon Braking systems. The GTI did 100km to 0 in 37.2m and the R in 38.5m. This means the GTI beats ALL the Japanese entries and the R would be in the middle of them.
Simply changing to six piston calipers isn't a guarantee of success either, as evident by the Audi S3, which only managed a 39.1m, despite their 6 pistons up front and 2 pistons at the rear.

To me the Australian braking results was quite surprising. 34.2m for a Ford ute weighing 1900kg and a Holden SS-V weighing 1800kg is awesome. Though brake packages on both were much more expensive than the Alcon's used on the APR cars ($7000 and $6500 respectively, compared to $4500 for the Alcons). I also wonder how much tyre width had to do with the result?

The biggest concern is that both cars have lot of trouble getting their power on the ground - all the rear wheel drives and all but one Japanese car heavily outperformed both the R and the GTI (the latter being more understandable) in the 0-100km/h sprint.

This isn't a concern really. This is purely a by product of the cars being manuals.
I'm not sure what the issue is here. I'm not sure whether even race car drivers have forgotten how to use a stick and clutch, or whether VW (Golf MK6) manuals are just really that bad, but we knew even before the GTI and R arrived in Australia, that the manual would cost you at least 1 second and would also cost you "consistencey".
The Audi S3 "DSG" does a 0 to 100 in 4.58 seconds in these tests despite only have 187kw at the wheels on this particular dyno (day). The R measured only 230w on this particular dyno (pretty low compared to the ~250kw which APR Stage III kits have shown on other dyno days), yet only manages a 5.74 second. That is actually a great improvement over what people are getting in stock manual Rs (~6.4) - but considering a stock R DSG gets consistent 5.7s and a simple APR Stage I ECU flash gets you 4.68 seconds and less (in line with the Audi S3 DSG here), the switch to DSG cars can't happen quick enough!

The only places the APR cars outshone the crowd was high speed cornering and overall lap time. Impressive, but completely irrelevant on the street, where braking and low-speed performance is of utmost importance. The rest of the performance was mid-range at best, highlighted in their overall 12th and 14th positions out of 18 cars.

The results are interesting. I'm not really sure I understand how they work. I mean, I understand the weightings. What I don't understand is how points are allocated in each of the categories. The Golf R was the quickest on the track and it got a full 20/20 points. Yet the "winning car" was a full 7.9 seconds slower around the track, placing it 8th in that test, and it still receives 19.34/20. When the points margin for placing 8th and such a massive lap time difference is so low, it kills any chance it has. So whilst the 0 to 100 and 400m times were only weighted at 10 each, as were Dyno etc, the points allocations in these gives them far more important compared to where the European cars did well.

In fact, the points scaling is so interestingly strange to me, that not only did the R come 12th and the GTI 14th, that the 135i was 10th, the S3 13th and the Scirocco 15th and TSI (unsurprisingly I guess) 18th. Mixed in the gaps of the European cars were the Evo X's and the Liberty, with all the Aussie cars taking up the top 4 , then an STI, two more Aussies, another STI, and the last Aussie!

Guy.... bring on the DSG, and turn off those damn ESP and XDL programs!

Whilst we all wish there were some way to turn off the ESP - I can't see it happening due to liability/insurance/legal system in Australia...

[Guy_H]

Sorry Murphy,

I completely disagree

Our cars stopped 100-0 (in class) second & third.

The cars that finished behind us (three VAG cars) had brakes costing:

$11,500
$4820
$4600 (so all three cost more than our setup).

Then the car that flogged us all was a BMW 135i with $800 worth of brake mods.

So vehicle dynamics have a lot to do with it - remember last months bang for your buck where the GTI & R finished 2nd & 3rd last in the braking - compared to EVERYTHING!

It's simply the cars dynamics & I am very happy to take on any VAG derivitive of this chassis in a brake competition & win!

Anyway, it's your choice for the street, we don't have any problems, the streets up here have lots of corners, & that was our setup, the ultimate straight line setup would have suffered on the track.

Check out the results in the other categories -especially the Aussie category:

First place 0-400m BTA F6 12.28 seconds
First place 400m Vmax BTA F6 200.7kmph

Last place EC lap time BTA F6 2.19.1 seconds.
Last place 100-0 BTA F6 39.2m

So That car was 1 full second quicker than us in the 1/4 mile

Our cars were 19 & 20 seconds quicker than it in the laptime.

I'm pretty happy to give away that 1 second on the 1/4

Anyway, read into the results as you wish. The other GTI's & Golf R's that were supposed to show didn't.

DSG will definitely help next year.

edit - Check out the EVO TMR results - almost the slowest 1/4 & acceleration times, braking distances "ordinary" & still it lapped quicker than the other jap cars?

I see a pattern forming here.

[Guy_H]

P.S. - I love a good debate!

Murphy, are you going to build a VAG car for the challenge next year?

[Tim]

Im sure all of the cars that were competing were truly awesome but I think you guys are getting a bit too over analytical. I know its hard not to compare specs as thats the idea of the whole challenge. I do enjoy the spectacle of the whole thing.

I havent had a chance to read the article yet but have they outlined anything in regards to the weather on the day? from what I saw it was pretty horrible with mention that conditions varied between runs in different cars. Also if it was wet then no doubt some cars with aggressive suspension setups/tyres would have suffered as well.

That aside it is good to see VWs punching above their weight. Its only going to bring more people to the brand which is great.

[MurphyTheElf]

P.S. - I love a good debate!

Murphy, are you going to build a VAG car for the challenge next year?

Firstly, I want to say congratulations for your efforts, Guy. I was going to write that at the end of my last post, but it may have sounded spurious in light of my critique. Secondly, I don't have a mechanical bone in my body, but I am free to analyse performance results and put my uneducated conclusions to the forum and contribute to a debate.

Sorry Murphy,

I completely disagree

Our cars stopped 100-0 (in class) second & third.

The cars that finished behind us (three VAG cars) had brakes costing:

$11,500
$4820
$4600 (so all three cost more than our setup).

Then the car that flogged us all was a BMW 135i with $800 worth of brake mods.

So vehicle dynamics have a lot to do with it - remember last months bang for your buck where the GTI & R finished 2nd & 3rd last in the braking - compared to EVERYTHING!

It's simply the cars dynamics & I am very happy to take on any VAG derivitive of this chassis in a brake competition & win!

The fact that the Golfs lapped the track so damn quickly shows how brilliant the dynamics really are. Which is why I was so surprised that their braking performance was bettered (class aside) by much heavier cars with below average dynamics (in this entire field). You've stated costs of brake packages in vehicles that you bettered, but I know that's not the only contributing factor, which is why I stated the combined cost of brakes, suspension, wheels and tyres.

Anyway, it's your choice for the street, we don't have any problems, the streets up here have lots of corners, & that was our setup, the ultimate straight line setup would have suffered on the track.

Check out the results in the other categories -especially the Aussie category:

First place 0-400m BTA F6 12.28 seconds
First place 400m Vmax BTA F6 200.7kmph

Last place EC lap time BTA F6 2.19.1 seconds.
Last place 100-0 BTA F6 39.2m

So That car was 1 full second quicker than us in the 1/4 mile

Our cars were 19 & 20 seconds quicker than it in the laptime.

I'm pretty happy to give away that 1 second on the 1/4

We all know that Aussie and US muscle cars don't go around corners! How's that relevant?

Since so much of the challenge's focus was on launching, straight-line sprints and low-speed courses, maybe a different setup may have yielded better overall results? Is this indicative of what to expect from stage 3? Heaps of power but tough to launch and "average" performance at lower (street) speeds. I'm only asking because the following aspects are important to me:

1. Off the line launch (0-40/60kmh) with minimal delay to be able to leapfrog other drivers from standstill, and to dart across oncoming traffic when turning right.
2. In-gear acceleration (80 - 120/140) for overtaking.
3. Low speed agility for (legal) suburban driving, twisties, etc

High speed performance for the street is irrelevant - that's just likely to get you disqualified or killed.

Anyway, read into the results as you wish. The other GTI's & Golf R's that were supposed to show didn't.

DSG will definitely help next year.

That certainly is a shame - maybe a Golf or VW-only tuner challenge is in order!

Good to see the DSG is on the cards! And again..... well done!