DSG and 350nm Torque Limit ?

[Guy_H]

As quoted in my previous post: (This is a quote from the US APR web site - not me)

"NOTE Do not be fooled by claims from lesser tuners, a DSG reflash IS NOT Required to achieve the advertised power claims with an APR ECU Upgrade."

This was on topic & I believe, and I believe I contributed to the information in this topic. I don't think I have mentioned any other companies names what so ever.

To clarify what I said previously:

On a car with a K03 / K04 & DSG - I think you will find that a raised rev limiter will be detrimental to acceleration, and also we don't require any alterations to the mythical "torque limiter" to deliver our advertised torque to the wheels of your DSG equipped car.

Now, can you please show me some examples (like before & after dyno's) where a modified GTI has been able to deliver more or less torque to the wheels - with & without a DSG flash? I would love to see one!

[REXman]

Hey check out this link if your an R owner!!

DSG (S-Tronic) Phase 1 Software Upgrade - JBS

[Corey_R]

I might be pricing myself out of a discount on a tune here Guy, but since we are giving it to you, , I think shifting well before redline is definitely not the quickest way to a given speed - unless your trying to slow down. I understand the concept of the torque curve, but engine speed and shift point has a lot to do with acceleration, and what you say might be true on a 22B wrx or a rally car where it's all torque in the mid range and it's all corners.. But not the case in a straight line.

My Polo GTI starts running out of lungs around 5,000 rpm, well before the Redline. Whilst you can rev out to the redline and beyond, it's quicker to change down where the turbo is in its operating range better. The Polo GTI has a K03 turbo, as does the MKV/6 Golf GTI. Although it has been a while since I've had my Stage II MKV GTI, I seem to remember it too being more beneficial to change before the redline than at. Also, the Dyno graphs for both the MK6 GTI Stage 1 and MK6 GTI Stage II with TBE and CAI also show that the HP is already dropping off by 5,500rpm and the NM has long been dropping off. So I would question the benefit of raising the redline via a DSG tune.

The Golf R may be a different story, as it has a K04 turbo which operates at higher RPMs. Its Stage I graph shows that the power has flattened out by 6500 and torque is dropping off quite a lot, so maybe some more RPMs would be useful, maybe not.

One of the things that the DSG tune does have which interests me is the disabling of the kickdown and autochange up in manual mode. That would be an attractive option.

Also, if a DSG tune could swap the up and downshift direction of the stick in manual without requiring my to open the unit up and swap any electrical contacts, then that'd also be welcomed!

[Tim]

its a lot more complex than just looking at dyno plots.

Torque, power and boost can vary in each gear. Its something you can only really evaluate by the seat of your pants I reckon.

[Corey_R]

Very true... hence the "maybes" in relation to the R.
Stock, Stage I and Stage II GTI's I personally think from my experience as an owner it'd be a waste of money

Stage III GTI's and Golf R's, maybe?! I'd love to see some actual data on the topic

[Guy_H]

Someone (in Australia) went to a lot of trouble to measure it all (with the DSG)

Acceleration graph & shift points - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com

5800 RPM was the optimum shiftpoint in these tests (to keep maximum acceleration).

And from this thread:

DSG Shift Point Data (Myths Busted) - VW GTI Forum / VW Rabbit Forum / VW R32 Forum / VW Golf Forum - Golfmkv.com

"Earlier it shifts, the more torque it sees."

REXman, from my experience with manual transmissions (in Polo GTI, Golf GTI, S3's & Golf R) - shortshifting is a must to keep it on spool. Hit close to the redline & you drop off it.

Big Turbo is of couse a different matter, the goal posts have shifted.

Certainly a DSG modification that would allow you to hold a gear (not let the computer shift of its own accord) would be an excellent idea. I'm sure VW wouldn't like it - the mechanical sympathy would be compromised Bit like selecting 2nd when you wanted forth.....

[Corey_R]

On the topic of this DSG tuning, a few years ago when I first looked into this the big player in this field was HPA Motorsports. It appears they had the original products on the market. Unlike the Custom-Code / JBS who developed this over 2 years on a single R32, HPA had been working on this since 2004 with over two dozen DSG gearboxes in a range of VAG cars and apparently had some involvement with VAG in various projects.

Custom-Code/JBS' prices are £400 (for what they call Phase 1), £600 (Phase 2, appears to be same as Phase 1 but with custom rev points available?), and £2820 to £3000 (Phase 3, which is clutch pack upgrades).

So in AUD that's $695, $1045, and $4905-$5215... plus taxes and all that jazz - however, JBS will only perform these upgrades in their workshop!

There is a local distributor for Custom-Code in Australia, but there is no mention of the DSG flash products on that page. Not that there is any mention of the DSG flash productions on the official custom-code page either.


HPA Motorsports prices are US$899 (for what they call Stage 2), US$1995 (Stage 3) and US$2495 (Stage 4), though for Stage 3 and 4 they already have a disclaimer to stage that the continued reliability of the OEM clutch packs cannot be quantified. In AUD these would be $1010, $2235 and $2800.

Another thing HPA has over JBS, is that they have a "Loaner Tool Program", where they take a credit card security deposit and send you the cable and software so you can apply this to your car. They also have a local distributor in Sydney called City Performance Centre.

Interestingly, and I'm not quite sure what to make of this, the text descriptions from the JBS pages (top quote) appear to be very similar to the HPA pages (bottom quote):

In M-mode, automatic up-shifting at wide open throttle has been deactivated, as has kick-down; allowing you to bounce of the newly redefined rev limiter* and maintain your gear at will.

In M mode; automatic up-shifting at wide open throttle has been deactivated, as has kick-down; allowing you to bounce of the newly redefined rev limiter and maintain your gear at will.

So um yeah... anyone know what's going on with Custom-Code/JBS and HPA?

It'd be nice if someone could actually find some data on the benefit on anything but an R32 though...

[Parky]

GUY_H can you please clarify how APR tune deals with the DSG Torque limiter. Does the APR tune calibrate the way the ECU and TCU (mechatronic computer) communicate to trick the Torque manager's request to limit the torque ?

Or is there another way?

[Guy_H]

GUY_H can you please clarify how APR tune deals with the DSG Torque limiter. Does the APR tune calibrate the way the ECU and TCU (mechatronic computer) communicate to trick the Torque manager's request to limit the torque ?

Or is there another way?

Bit more complicated than that - oh, they won't disclose it either - some other tuners still have to work it out sorry.

You can read pretty much every value that is transmitted between the ECU & TCU if you have the correct CAN sniffer, if you spend enough time live logging that data & comparing, you will see the difference.

[h100vw]

Custom-Code/JBS' prices are £400 (for what they call Phase 1), £600 (Phase 2, appears to be same as Phase 1 but with custom rev points available?), and £2820 to £3000 (Phase 3, which is clutch pack upgrades).

So in AUD that's $695, $1045, and $4905-$5215... plus taxes and all that jazz - however, JBS will only perform these upgrades in their workshop!

There is a local distributor for Custom-Code in Australia, but there is no mention of the DSG flash products on that page. Not that there is any mention of the DSG flash productions on the official custom-code page either.

Interestingly, and I'm not quite sure what to make of this, the text descriptions from the JBS pages (top quote) appear to be very similar to the HPA pages (bottom quote):

So um yeah... anyone know what's going on with Custom-Code/JBS and HPA?

Totally missed this one, been really busy this winter with exams.

I can carry out DSG flashes, I haven't bought the software module for my flash lead yet though. It's a fair cash investment on my part. I have someone keen to go ahead post DPF deletion, so any others that feel the need would help the cause.

Anything software wise, that Custom-Code advertise, I have access to.

Phase 1 would be about $800.

Questions on the back of a $50 note please

Gavin