DSG and 350nm Torque Limit ?

[Parky]

I understand that the DSG gearboxes have a software limit of 350nm of torque through the DCM (transmission control module) However i have found that GIAC and HPA HPA Motorsports Inc. - DSG Performance Programming offer DSG Tunes that clear these software limits. APR seem to also claim they remove the software limit. However I only truly think that HPA can really remove these limits as they directly tune the DCM.

What are your thoughts on this? BTW i have a APR Stage 2+ Tune and i think the torque is limited to 350nm.. I might try to get HPA to chip it for 1 day trial and so i know if APR do really remove the torque limit or it just marketing spin.

[Parky]

Source from different forum..

"A little information about DSG and its ability to handle more power/torque etc and to put to bed the general assumption that it can't.

The O2E DSG box has exactly the same torque rating as the O2M box found in manual R32's, and that is 350Nm or
approx 258Lb/ft of torque. Internally at VW the gearboxes are known as O2E 350 and O2M 350 because of these ratings. (on Audi 3.2 TT’s they are know as MQ-350 and DQ-350 gearbox’s) same gearbox’s same torque ratings.
VW also produce an O2E 280 which has a 280Nm torque rating for lesser powered VW models.
The weight of the DSG Box is approx 95kg by the way of which the special gear oil weighs 5.3kgs!!, I know this because I have completed a competitive analysis and tested the gearbox then taken one apart to inspect it's internals. We had no problems with it while it was tested at the proving ground.

Anyway, that’s not to say that the O2E or O2M box's can't handle more torque as anybody knows, with the current
crop of conversions from HGP-Turbo, EIP, HPA, Rothe etc.

HGP also produce a Single Turbo conversion for the DSG with 400ps and 515nm of torque, so it kind of puts to bed he rumor
that the box is the "weak" point of the car.
The limiting factor of the box is not the gears or clutch packs but the programming of TCM (transmission control
module). The DSG TCM is programmed such that, if the input shaft sees more than a certain amount of torque (350 Nm)
it tells the ECU to dial down on the engine power. I assume this has been done by VW engineers to prolong the life
of the box and preserve clutch packs and brake bands, as I have heard that the clutch packs are designed to last the life of the car without out ever
needing to be changed... this statement comes from an article written in ATZ/MZT Engineering magazine (from Germany) in March 2004
by Dr. Frank Günter, Director of VW Program Management for BorgWarner Transmission Systems, who helped develop the
gearbox.

Ok, back on track, a certain tuning company built at VW’s request a few single turbo R32 DSG’s for VW to stress
test their DSG’s at Ehra-Lessien proving grounds and VW have logged at full throttle 5500rpm launches with no
reported issues. I believe this to be single turbo engines pushing out approx 400ps similar to HGP’s 400PS
conversion.
The TCM’s were modified to increase the standard launch control rpm’s from 3500 to 5500 to further enhance
acceleration times, and test the transmissions durability.
They also were able to reprogramme the oil pressure regulators of the clutch packs (hydraulic controls & pumps)to simulate higher clamping
forces and hence enable the clutch packs to compress further to enable them to handle more torque without slipping.
It should also be noted that the clutch packs are sprayed with oil to lubricate and to help dissipate heat
during certain driving conditions.

The probable reason why AMD and other tuning companies in the UK have limited torque increases on R32 and 3.2 TT's conversions is that have not yet been brave enough to dig into the gearbox internals and modify the TCM's to increase the oil pressure in the box and therefore increase it's torque rating.
So it's not that it can't be done, you just have to know what you're doing.
HPG Tuning in Germany can carry out this modification, and do for there 400Ps conversion, Wendland MotorenTecknik produce engines conversions for DSG equipped vehilces up to 310ps/360Nm torque.

I hope the above goes some way to halt the general assumption that O2E’s can’t handle more torque."

More here ATTENTION ALL 3.2 OWNERS!!!! HPA turbo kit for DSG: ***it's possible*** =) - AudiWorld Forums

[h100vw]

DSG Tuning Software - JBS

There's other tuners offering upgrades to the DSG software.

Gavin

[Tim]

Most of the major players are offering true DSG software now. HPA were the first when they started bench flashing them but most companies can do it direct through the diagnostics port now.
Currently I dont think anyone is offering a solution for the MY09+ cars unfortunately although several companies are working hard on them so hopefully it will be available very soon.

[Parky]

Does APR offer true DSG Tune ?

[Tim]

I dont think so.

[Corey_R]

APR state the a DSG retune is not required. I too had a MKV Stage 2 GTI and I'm not convinced that there IS a torque limiter on the DSG. It was quite clear to me that there was a difference in torque at low RPMs between the Stage I and stage II, and since both were well over the 350NM torque limit, if it was limited, there should have been no difference.

I think that as Parky's post has alluded to, that initially the "limits" of the DSG were not well known, and with the expensive replacement cost, the tuners were just not sure how far they could push the DSG. So many limited the ECU tunes to 350 if placed on a DSG equiped car. This has since been blown out of the water with APR Stage 3 (~515NM) and APR Stage IV (god knows) tunes running fine on DSG gearboxes.

The APR Stage IV development teaser video indicates that APR either do in fact have their own DSG tune for when they think it is required (raising the red line in cars with upgraded engine internals, such as Stage IV cars), or have used someone elses DSG tune to provide this.

[Tim]

There is a torque limiter.

There are two ways of messing with it though. You can reprogram the actual DSG computer or you can reprogram how the ECU interprets the torque reading coming out of the box.

[Corey_R]

Aaah. So from that it seems it's possible for an ECU update to effectively ignore the DSG's requests to limit torque (or "fool" the DSG into thinking it's getting less torque than it's really getting?) to work around the torque limiter?

[Tim]

Thats the way I understand it from the conversations I have had with a couple of tuners.

[Guy_H]

The "torque manager" in the last two Bosch ME versions is a pretty complex little thing. Its maps intertwine with dozens of other maps in the ECU & not many calibrators have a grasp of it.

Certainly on a car without a big turbocharger, a DSG flash that holds the RPM longer is actually a detriment to performance (takes the turbo way past it's efficiency curve, and drops it up a gear way off its spool incline) - as most people would know, on a K03 or K04 car, the quickest way is to short shift well before redline & keep the turbo on top of the curve.

If you have a big turbo that is still making good boost & power beyond 7000 rpm, then of course a higher rev limit can be an advantage.

No problems with a higher torque levels, and we now have 5 years experience with flashing & installing bigger turbo's on DSG equipped cars for more than 5 years now!

[Tim]

The "torque manager" in the last two Bosch ME versions is a pretty complex little thing. Its maps intertwine with dozens of other maps in the ECU & not many calibrators have a grasp of it.

Who dont you think has a grasp of it? HPA only modify the DSG and not the cars ECU. Are you saying they dont have a good grasp of it because of that? They are pretty much the market leaders when it comes to DSG modifications.

It wasnt long ago when you were implying torque limiting on a dsg is a myth.

[Guy_H]

Not implying anything Tim - Fact is HPA do make great DSG modifications, primarily coming from the need to put big turbo's on 6 cylinder cars & make big horsepower very effectively - they have an excellent product.

Other fact is we have seen software (engine software - not gearbox software) where the "Torque Manager" is not successfully modified in the DSG cars, resulting in misfires at load shift points.

I think you need to read my post again.

This is a quote from the US APR website:

"NOTE Do not be fooled by claims from lesser tuners, a DSG reflash IS NOT Required to achieve the advertised power claims with an APR ECU Upgrade."

You are welcome to your opinion though

[Tim]

My comprehension skills are just fine.

My opinion is that we should be able to carry out an intelligent conversation without posting derogatory/negative comments about "lesser tuners" or other calibrators not having a "grasp" of things. Youre only going to get peoples backs up and come across in a poor light.

Im merely trying to point out that explaining the merrits of your own product does not necessitate saying that others are rubbish. Afterall we are here to discuss or help the original poster with his question and not to sell product right?

So basically in answer to the original question. You do not need to remove the DSG torque limitation via a DSG flash on APR tuned cars because they address that when they recalibrate the ECU (if the application requires it im assuming) Did I get that right?

Answering questions without dancing around the topic is so much easier.

[REXman]

I might be pricing myself out of a discount on a tune here Guy, but since we are giving it to you, , I think shifting well before redline is definitely not the quickest way to a given speed - unless your trying to slow down. I understand the concept of the torque curve, but engine speed and shift point has a lot to do with acceleration, and what you say might be true on a 22B wrx or a rally car where it's all torque in the mid range and it's all corners.. But not the case in a straight line.

Ps that website has a kit for the R where it let's you hold gears like the GTI!!! That with a tune could be alright.