6 Pot Brake upgrade???

[Guy_H]

Porsche calipers (Brembo) generally have way different sized pistons than what the after market Brembo's do for a front engined car - as mentioned above, a mid / rear engined Porsche has way different braking demand than that of a front engined car.

We are getting some Alcon's made up for our Turbo Cayman & the rule of thumb from Alcon is vehicle weight > 1500kg's use 4 pot caliper - over 1500kg's use 6 pot caliper. The piston sizing for the Mono 4 calliper (we will use the same on the Cayman as we do on the GTI & Golf R - the Piston sizes are 3mm & 5mm different respectively!

[Corey_R]

A question about upgraded brake lines. A friend of mine from "Skyline circles" has said that steel braided brake lines cause their cars to be defected unless they've been engineered (and received the engineers certificate etc). Are these illegal on the roads or something?

On another note, there isa Volkswagen (UK) Racing Big Brake Kit from Rennenhaus available for $3150, plus $200 for alternate caliper colours, and includes everything needed for fitment:
* 2x calipers
* uprated pads (Ferodo DS2500 are supplied)
* 2x 352mm discs
* 2x aluminium bells
* 2x caliper mounting brackets
* Goodridge braided steel flexible brake lines
* new, longer wheel bolts for front wheels, including 2 locking wheel bolts

I noticed that Rennenhaus had these matched up with Golf R rear brakes on a modified 118TSI for the Motor Tuner Challenge.
Does anyone have any experience / opinions about them?

[Guy_H]

Only comment that I have is in most states, a brake upgrade needs an engineers certificate to be road legal. We have all ours done in QLD, it costs ~ $180 for the inspection, certification & mod plate.

Obviously if you do not have them engineer certified, you could end up in a lot of bother with the authorities and / or your insurance company.

[Guy_H]

P.S. Ian's TSI was tested along with all the other vehicles for stopping (100 -> 0) by Motor Magazine, along with a whole bunch of cars including ours (published next month). It will be interesting if that data shows an improvement over the BFYB results on cars with stock tyres & stock brakes.

[ozgti]

Is that engineering reciprocal to other states?

[Corey_R]

Yeah - I'd also like to know that... cause I've heard NSW people talk about $1000 to $2000+ for vehicles to be engineered here!

[Guy_H]

Is that engineering reciprocal to other states?

Sorry, I'm not sure on that. From what I understand, its enforced state by state and they have their own rules, so probably not.

Someone needs to contact an engineer in each state. I have QLD covered, who can do NSW & VIC?

[Corey_R]

Ok... so I'm not in the office today, but looking at the RTA site I have found the Vehicle standards information sheets.

It has a heap of PDFs which cover many topics, including:
A list of the Australian Design Rules

Guidelines for light vehicle modifications, which includes this passage:

Brakes
Brake systems must not be modified such that the brake performance is reduced or that the risk of failure of the brake
system is increased. Brake discs or drums must not be machined beyond the reconditioning limits set down by the
manufacturer. When brakes are upgraded using components or systems which were not standard options for the
vehicle, an engineering certificate is necessary to attest to the adequacy of the new system, eg: hydraulic fluid sufficiency,
balanced braking on all wheels, brake pedal pressure limitations and braking performance.

Also of interest is the Guidelines for alternative wheels and tyres, since you often need to change the wheels and offsets etc to accomodate "big brake kits".

There is also the Engineering signatories which lists the addresses and contact details of every engineer who is qualified to issue an engineering certificate. Unfortunately it also has this note:

Note: The Engineering Certificate System (ECS) referred to in this information sheet will be replaced by the
Vehicle Safety and Compliance Certification Scheme (VSCCS) during 2010. The RTA is no longer accepting
applications for membership to the ECS, pending the introduction of the VSCCS.
Information will be made available on the RTA’s website about the VSCCS prior to it being implemented.
Once the VSCCS is in place, the ECS will cease to exist and this VSI will be replaced with a new list of
VSCCS licensed certifiers (VSI No.4. All enquiries regarding the VSCCS can be directed by e-mail to
vehicle_safety_compliance@rta.nsw.gov.au, or by phone to Jill Gallagher on (02) 8588 4448.

So does this mean the rules are changing in NSW, or just the method of having certification done?

[hooba]

It means "don't mess with the brakes unless you are prepared to pay for an engineer to certify that your modifications are fine".

I know of a number of cars being defected because of braided brake lines, google is your friend, it's a hotly debated issue.

[rs73]

Maltech, a company in Geelong is the only one I know who makes ADR approved steel braided brake lines. Their brake lines come with rubber sleeve near the connectors with ADR # stamped on the rubber. There used to be a group buy going on through the Skylines forum a while ago and I had it on my old R33 Skyline before I sold it. I also didn't bother to change my V35 Skyline brake hoses till I sold it too after the R33 ownership.

Whether that satisfies ADR requirement or still requiring an engineer's signature on top of it, I am not sure...

Since my GTI is new, and IMHO the OEM brake is a lot bitier than even my V35's brembo calipers, I won't bother to replace any part of it, plus I don't track my cars anymore... played enough with the R33 the GTI is 300kg lighter than my V35 and it didn't need a 4-pot brembo caliper or same sort on the road.

[walbjj]

would upgrading the gti brakes to the audi 8p s3 brakes or even the golf r brakes make a difference to the performance?
there was a recent sale of the s3 rotors and calipers for the fronts for only $700. if u were to change over to a dba rotor and better pads, i would think that would be pretty good.
and would doing this require a engineers cert?

[v0a]

Maltech, a company in Geelong is the only one I know who makes ADR approved steel braided brake lines. Their brake lines come with rubber sleeve near the connectors with ADR # stamped on the rubber. There used to be a group buy going on through the Skylines forum a while ago and I had it on my old R33 Skyline before I sold it. I also didn't bother to change my V35 Skyline brake hoses till I sold it too after the R33 ownership.

Whether that satisfies ADR requirement or still requiring an engineer's signature on top of it, I am not sure...

Since my GTI is new, and IMHO the OEM brake is a lot bitier than even my V35's brembo calipers, I won't bother to replace any part of it, plus I don't track my cars anymore... played enough with the R33 the GTI is 300kg lighter than my V35 and it didn't need a 4-pot brembo caliper or same sort on the road.

hey rs73, you sell rda rotors dont you? well gb them

[REXman]

Go on, at least it'll be "exciting"!

Yeah like that wasn't ****en funny! Gold.

Just want to add about the brakes.. I thought the Rs setup with 345mm discs on the front is pretty darn good.

I think it got out braked by a few other cars but maybe the weight of the cars tested is different? I'm not sure tbh, but I reckon the Rs brakes with some pads is plenty.. And they are pretty huge standard anyway. I took my car for a caning a while ago now and the brakes did not fade for ages.

The 370z was always going to stop better with it's wide body, low stance brembos.. Where the golf is a taller hatch, weighing a good 1550kg with just a couple of options, and accelerates well, whilst carrying more weight in the front with the AWD.

I'm no motoring doctor but I don't think the brakes are ****, it's just the car is hella heavy and not exactly low to the ground.

[walbjj]

But how much is the rs setup compared to brembo or ap or stoptech?
The golf r or s3 would be a better comPromise for those on a budget

[dave_r]

Just want to add about the brakes.. I thought the Rs setup with 345mm discs on the front is pretty darn good.

Yeh I was originally investigating the brake options but afte 6000kms, I have no issues with them on the road. Absolutely brilliant setup. Will do a few track days but I think they're gonna be fine, prob just change the fluid.