Golf R -v- Golf GTI

[zbeasty]

The baby brother Clio is a much better looking car imo. The problem I have with both of them is that they are only available as a 3 door and that doesn't suit me.

Would also have to say I disagree with WJ's assertion that the RS250 front end bite etc makes awd nonessential. I think if you tried the same on wet roads there would be a marked difference in the speed you could carry in the fwd car vs the awd car.

[Corey_R]

The baby brother Clio is a much better looking car imo.

Yeah, I prefer the Clio too.

[triode12]

Test drove the Clio today - not my cup of tea.

Great handling but you really have to work the gears and keep it in high revs.

[bwen]

Would also have to say I disagree with WJ's assertion that the RS250 front end bite etc makes awd nonessential. I think if you tried the same on wet roads there would be a marked difference in the speed you could carry in the fwd car vs the awd car.

Why would anyone be driving fast enough for AWD to be essential in wet conditions anyway. AWD might be superior when it comes to giving traction off the line but whilst exitting corners FWD and RWD still have the advantage of less drive train loss.

[REXman]

I had a look at the photos that WJ posted of the RS250.

Either the more I look at the RS250, the more I dislike it, or it just looks better in real life than in photos.
Or maybe it's just a case that in photos I've the time to look at and absorb the details.. I don't know - but I initially liked it when I saw it at the Sydney AIMS, and I'm disliking it more and more now...

+1. at the motor show it looked pretty nice in a "spoilers, aggressive" way.

I'm seeing photos of them now, and I even saw one cruising in silver.. Reminds me of the lure of the bug eye Rex. You either love it or hate it. I'm not a fan unfortunately.

The baby brother Clio is a much better looking car imo. The problem I have with both of them is that they are only available as a 3 door and that doesn't suit me.

Would also have to say I disagree with WJ's assertion that the RS250 front end bite etc makes awd nonessential. I think if you tried the same on wet roads there would be a marked difference in the speed you could carry in the fwd car vs the awd car.

+1 here too. AWD is great particularly in adverse conditions. On you tube there is great example of the Ford Focus RS, up against the R on some snow.

And even though the RS is a great car on the track with 224KWs and a great version of FWD, there is no contest on the snow - where the RS literally can't even get off the line and the R wins by around 30 car lengths.

And not mention if you do big modifications to the motor for quarter mile and acceleration tests, the AWD will help there too..

There is definitely a place for AWD in my world.

[mfl]

Why would anyone be driving fast enough for AWD to be essential in wet conditions anyway. AWD might be superior when it comes to giving traction off the line but whilst exitting corners FWD and RWD still have the advantage of less drive train loss.

having gone from RWD, to FWD to AWD and now back to FWD, the AWD certainly was an advantage in accelerating through and out of corners in the wet. the first FWD I owned was a V6 Vectra, which threatened to understeer off the road any time it rained and you encountered a corner. The Liberty could go through corners in the wet at speed which would have had the Vectra leave the road.

I was surprised last night in rain, how easy it was to break traction in low speed corners in the GTI and I wasn't travelling fast.

[SilvrFoxX]

having gone from RWD, to FWD to AWD and now back to FWD, the AWD certainly was an advantage in accelerating through and out of corners in the wet. the first FWD I owned was a V6 Vectra, which threatened to understeer off the road any time it rained and you encountered a corner. The Liberty could go through corners in the wet at speed which would have had the Vectra leave the road.

I was surprised last night in rain, how easy it was to break traction in low speed corners in the GTI and I wasn't travelling fast.

As an owner of and AWD Liberty I agree, there is no way I would throw an FWD in the wet into corners or sweeping bends at the pace of the AWD. Maybe the FWDs have all the kit to make them handle it but the confidence just isn't there for me.. the reason why the missus immdiately said we would get the R over the GTI.

[Ideo]

For me it's the extra traction on dirt. I have to go to the family farm pretty often, so a fair bit of smooth, fast dirt road driving. AWD is priceless in those conditions.

[bwen]

having gone from RWD, to FWD to AWD and now back to FWD, the AWD certainly was an advantage in accelerating through and out of corners in the wet.

As an owner of and AWD Liberty I agree, there is no way I would throw an FWD in the wet into corners or sweeping bends at the pace of the AWD.

I agree wholeheartedly that AWD will be faster in and out of corners if the road conditions are anything less than dry compared to a FWD or RWD drivetrain, but what I was trying to say is why would you be travelling fast enough in wet conditions for you to see the difference in AWD and FWD/RWD platforms? If there is rain or a damp surface on public roads I wouldn't be taking a corner any faster than 30-40km/h anyway so the safety concerns there are minimal.

I just don't like the misconceptions of people saying 'AWD is superior to FWD', as the Focus RS' revoknucle is a superb system they have going on there.

[WhiteJames]

Coloured Seat Belts & Cold Start Rev Limits.

Speaking of the Ford Focus RS – A Ford Dealer in Canberra still has 2 for sale (green/blue) for @ $63K. Not all the 315 are spoken for atm.

This is a quote from EVO Magazine Feb 2011 comparing the Golf R – EVO X – STI in the snow & wet conditions:

What does the Golf R do that the GTI doesn’t. Very little. It certainly doesn’t feel 4 wheel drive or exploit the fact that it is, like the Mitsubishi or Subaru. The article did say the Golf R was solid, esp. over vast distances & pretty quick.

In hindsight:

I forgot to mention that when the Renault Megane RS250 is cold, the engine ECU will not allow the motor to rev beyond 4500rpm. As the motor warms up, the rev ceiling slowly increases until the full monty is available once motor has heated up. Plenty of torque available at 4500rpm.

The yellow seat belts only come on the Megane RS250 Trophee - Recaro Cloth Trim. Leather trimmed Recaro’s or std seats have black seat belts.

I can see why the major motoring magazines and newspapers awarded the Renault Megane RS250 hot hatch of the year. It’s so fun to drive. I feel 10 years younger when behind the Megane RS250 – it does make you feel more alive when working the controls and can be addictive when behind the wheel.

I purposefully organised to take the test drive in the country on rougher roadways in order to show up any defficiencies in the Renault chassis. The suspension & driveline do not only have to deal with the low speed compression stuff like smooth roadway dive/squat, body roll and torque steer ... but high compression stuff like pot holes, one wheel bumps, dishevelled concrete joints, ruts, and mid corner upsets. This way we're asking the chassis and driveline to cope with two factors at once rather than one factor only on smooth roadways.

I agree in the absolute sense that AWD is supreme in terrible conditions. No argument from me on that issue. AWD in the Golf R’s case makes for fast but not so fun when pitched against the Renault Megane RS250. The Renault RS250 is an extremely well executed hot hatch in terms of driver comfort /handling, grip and fun factor. The Clio RS is perhaps a little too hard core imo.

I spent a pretty penny & much time trying to re-tune the suspension on the old MKV GTI in an attempt to get it where Renault have gone with the Megane RS250 straight out of the factory.

Likewise with Ray ... when his almost full fruit Golf R arrives, it may be in need of aftermarket sway bars and a BBK package to bring it closer Renault. That will add another 6-7K onto top of the near 70K purchase price.

The Renault offers this from the factory for 45-50K. My GTI doesn’t require any changes to the motor or suspension, but it’s not the same league as the Renault for the fun and feel-good factor. For the track, I reckon the Renault RS250 could use a tighter LSD.

Cheers
WJ

[REXman]

As far as AWD vs FWD.. Even when its a FWD as good as the Revonuckled Focus RS.. In adverse conditions there is no contest.

YouTube - VW Golf R iMOTOR Review

(Corey how do you make it show the little YouTube box so we don't have to link off the site??-please edit if you know how!)

[hooba]

WHEELS magazine has an 11 car hot hatch shoot out, and I suspect will add more fuel to this thread.

[WhiteJames]

XDS electronic diff on snow

My understanding is that there are thre main brands of LSD for fwd vehicles: Quaife, Peliquin and Wavetrac. Wavetrac looks the goods to me. Ford Focus RS uses the Quaife LSD. Renault apparently have their own version of LSD. Not sure exactly what type LSD the Renault is running.

Here is a Polo GTI with EDL/XDS electronic diff:

YouTube - 2011 Volkswagen Polo GTI

Could've sworn that this Polo GTI was AWD such is the grip on the snow. Would AWD offer any greater advantage?

The Renault Megane RS250 is not direct injected; rather port injected. It does have a twin scroll turbo for a flat linear power surge as a one-up on Volkswagen. Direct injection is better for fuel metering, economy & power gains - but valve seats can have carbon build-up on them as the valve & valve seats are not cleaned with fuel as the case with port injection. Ray's R32 had the injection system & throttle body taken off for a carbon clean-off at 45,000km service (even though his R32 had 33,000km at the time). Some dealers are now doing this for the 45,000km service on the Golf R32 (MKV) to prevent excessive carbon build up.

Cheers.
WJ

[sabloke]

I think we all agree the R is a great GT that covers vast distances in comfort while the RS250 is more track oriented (read better drivers car). However, I read here that in adverse conditions the R is superior because it's got AWD. So, a car you don't normaly drive at 10/10 since it is not a track beast, in adverse conditions simply starts to shine and beats everything FWD? I have to ask, what adverse conditions? No snow, no black ice. We live in Australia, not Austria

I can't really see the point of AWD in anything short of WRC cars or fast off road driving. Good to see I'm not alone

[S.A]

There's plenty of snow and black ice in the alpine and sub-alpine areas of VIC and NSW every year, to require AWD. Understandably perhaps not so much in SA

One year, a mate and I struggled nearing Hotham in his MkV GTI and had to chain up to get up the hill.