What to buy? GTI or R20

[Timbo]

Re: What to buy? GTI or R20

Ah yes, the issue here is the power characteristics of the facelift S3, rather than any flash tune. Audi seem to have added some nice low down torque in MY10 cars.

The one gap we had today was a stock pre-facelift S3.

Pre flash, my car ran 160KwATW on a different Mainline dyno, but the car had a ****y DV at the time

[Nath]

O so theres that much difference between the MY09 and MY10, wow, they mustve been beaving away to get that extra torque.

The only reason I didnt see this as an issue is that from the write up the APR was the only MY09.

Peter - Stock MY10 S3 with no mods
Me - MY10 S3 with, CAI, Revo Tune only
Lenny-MACCA - MY09 S3, High Pressure Fuel Pump, APR Tune
Timbo - MY10 S3, GIAC Tune

But anyway, jeaslous, but satisfied with my GTI and cant wait to get a tune in 6 months or so....

[gareth_oau]

Timbo, how do you think Audi may have got that extra torque from the MY10 models, merely a tweaked tune or something else as well?

[Timbo]

I guess one advantage Audi has is a whole room full of tuning geeks, who can probably get access to data on their cars from dealerships worldwide (it's probably not like that, but work with me here ).

So, at any time in a production run for a given country they can add a little bit of 'sauce' to the tune they give their model

The dyno numbers confirm something MACCAA has talked to me about, after driving facelift S3s compared with pre-facelift -- the grunt lower down. Robbie's car, which is a facelift and Revo'd, has even more!

[Timbo]

I've said it before, but I am quite sure that if the pricing is in fact about the $62-65k mark for an R on the road (DSG 5DR w/ Leather/Xenon standard), ill make the jump from the $57k highly specced GTI to the R. It might not have a sunroof or Nav but I can always retro fit the Nav through Derek.

Here's something for you to think about. Suggests to me that a DSG version would be $67k

[elisiX]

Timbo I don't think the price of a new S3 is a fair indication of a DSG R20.

I'd say the R will be 57k for the 3DR manual through to 63k for a DSG 5DR.

Hopefully we can still get them on the road for the RRP.

[Corey_R]

Nah - a 5 door is only $1500 more in Golf land, and a DSG is only $2500 more. That shouldn't change just because it's an R. So even if it did start at $57k for the 3dr manual, the 5dr DSG would only be $61k.
But I think we should still expect R32 prices... $55,490 to $59,400 + OTR costs.

[Timbo]

Re: What to buy? GTI or R20

Timbo I don't think the price of a new S3 is a fair indication of a DSG R20.

I'd say the R will be 57k for the 3DR manual through to 63k for a DSG 5DR.

Hopefully we can still get them on the road for the RRP.

Jay, my point was to illustrate the deals Audi dealers will do, whereas I don't think you'll see much movement from VW dealers for at least 6mths after the R20 is released. My 2 cents

[Corey_R]

Yeah - but VW, and lots of respected members here, and even I was saying that for the Golf GTI. No negotiations and no corporate discounts for the first several months. Well, look how that turned out. People have been getting 12% discounts and using the corporate discount from practically day one on cars which were a "factory order in".

I think we need to give VW more credit. They know what the price of the Audi S3 is. They know that Audi is a "premium *cough* brand". They know Audi are giving big discounts. They aren't going to price the Golf R at the same price as the S3. History on the R32 shows us this, so I don't know all of a sudden everyone expect things to be any different now?

What's different this time? The Golf R has the same engine as the S3? Well, the S3 has the same engine as the TT-S, and the Golf Pirelli has an almost identical engine to the S3. Yet there is still a huge difference in price between the S3 and TT-S and the Pirelli was no more barely more expensive than the regular GTI (factoring in included options) and cheaper than regular GTI's which were optioned up. So having the S3's engine isn't going to make a big difference imo.

[elisiX]

Sorry Timbo, wasn't having a go or anything mate - I just feel that VW will play ball from the get go as they have with the GTI (like Corey has described). And Corey, I cant add.. $61k sounds much better for the 5DR DSG.

I think ill be speaking with my dealer tomorrow to change my order. Am discussing with the other half this evening. The R having the same motor as the S3 and TT-S represents awesome value really, as does the GTI @ $40-45k. But once the GTI is optioned to the hilt, the equation changes somewhat which is what's put me at this point of indecision.

[Nath]

I think theres two things here, one is that Audi is the premium brand (for this type of market) for the VW group and as such any top end model they introduce for VW must not directly compete with the similar model for Audi. So if the S3 & R20 are directly related then the R20 price and spec needs to have a gap big enough to keep the market seperate. That being said the current aggresive martketing by Audi is a different matter, and may or may not change when the R20 enters the Aus market.

Then there is the actual R price and entry, has it actually been confirmed that its coming to Aus yet, havent been keeping up with news? Prices have been thrown around by many people here, some having a guess and others that are in the so called 'know'. When it comes down to it VW have not announced pricing, and if and when they do yes it may well come into the Aussie market at a similar price to the outgoing R32 (give or take a small %) but IMO if you are looking at making a move from the GTI purely based on what you are hoping the price of the R20 will be then you are making a mistake. If the extra say $5K makes it an excellent buy over the GTI, what if its actually $6K, does that mean you wont buy?

I personnally think any decision to cancel and order for a GTI to place one on an R20 should be based on what you want to drive, if the R is what you want and you can afford anything up to the cost of a entry level S3 then sure go ahead, if your trying to stretch the budget that extra few $Ks to get the R20 then its probably not worth it in the long run.

In any case either car is a fantastic buy, including the S3, so whichever people get in the end I'm sure you wont be disappointed.

Just my 1.5cents worth.....

[Corey_R]

That being said the current aggresive martketing by Audi is a different matter, and may or may not change when the R20 enters the Aus market.

. This is actually a good point, since the S3 and R20 are so similar then VW may ask Audi to stop giving such significant discounts on the S3 so it doesn't hurt the R20 sales!

Then there is the actual R price and entry, has it actually been confirmed that its coming to Aus yet, havent been keeping up with news?

You're right, there hasn't been anything official, just posts from dealers who frequent this site who say that VWA are telling them that it's definitely coming and that the price is being targeted to be identical to the R32 - although a small different in price or 'included options' may occur.

[backdoc]

This has been interesting reading. I have decided, I think, to order a R20. Even tried to buy the Vic Euro plate last night, V WR 020, but some bugger already has it

[elisiX]

All good points guys but let me clarify.

Budget is really not the problem at the end of the day, I could theoretically buy a TT-S (and after yesterday have been looking at the Black TT-S which is currently for sale on ozaudi @ $80kish). When I sold my TT and kept just the Mazda 3 SP23, I did it because I bought a second property and felt it was the smart thing to do. I was getting the train to work for about a year at that point and the TT wasn't being driven often enough to maintain payments on an 80k vehicle. So it went and the SP23 has really been the most incredible value for money.

For about 10 months now i've been driving to work using the Mazda and I've got the desire to have something fun, sporty and relatively quick in the garage (or carport in this case lol). The MKV GTI was a car I always admired even when I had the TT. It's quick, nimble and all in this attractive little package. So when it came time to buying again while keeping a budget in mind, the GTI was the first and pretty much only choice starting at $40k or thereabouts. However once the options list started growing the original reasoning for getting into a new 'budget' car changed somewhat.

Assuming the R can be had on the road for $62-65k with Leather, DSG, 5DR and Xenon's (and hopefully a Sunroof), i'd be happy. It means spending anywhere from 5-7k more than the optioned Golf but you have essentially the same car but just a little bit better. In the past as i've mentioned before I wasn't shy to modding as with my TT and old HSV. The R is a clearly better base to be working from should I head down that path again. The great thing about the R also for me are the small things that could make the deal even more sound.

Sure to keep to this magical (assumed at this point) $62-65k mark, I might not be able to option the Park Assist or Nav (Nav can be retrofitted I am sure), but I still should get some of the key options which are important to me (DSG, Leather and Xenon). So in a way I am spending $5-7k more than the GTI for wheels that I really like and most likely wouldn't bother changing, 4 Motion and an extra 50KW. At this point the order hasn't changed - and I absolutely will not be making any adjustments until such time as official pricing has been released. Then I will decide once and for all.

If its $1k more than the figures i've thrown around will I still make the move? Yes I will. If its $3k more, perhaps not. Though I am due to receive my annual bonus in the Feb paycheck so depending on what that is, who knows. lol. As of this point I am taking delivery of the GTI very much a happy customer - lets wait to see the pricing before I can make a specific decision to change my mind. I think I will be happy either way - but I just had a friggin blast on the weekend with the guys at the dyno day and I feel that a little more power and a little more grip might just put a slightly bigger smile on my face.

[Corey_R]

Assuming the R can be had on the road for $62-65k with Leather, DSG, 5DR and Xenon's (and hopefully a Sunroof), i'd be happy.

I figure that if the Golf R comes in at R32 prices, and you're able to negotiate a 10% discount, that it'll be just under $63k otr with that config, or just under $66k with the Sat Nav. Even though Sat Nav is only $2500 option, the LCT makes it more costly...