GT TDi or ... something else ?

[OzzyJohn]

After much deliberation I've _almost_ decided on a candy white GT TDi with light coloured cow, bi-xenon, satnav, for me and parking sensors and DSG for my lovely wife.

My rationale is that I still get to have a really fun car to drive, while maintaining the ability to stay on good terms with my inner greenie.

I considered the GTI but the vast majority of my driving will be dropping the kids at school and driving to and from clients places, I doubt I'll ever get to the track, and sydney roads dont sit so well with the firmer suspension. Having said that I never test drove the GTI

I also considered the GT 1.4, but the skeptic in me says theres more things to go wrong and there's less room for improvement (chipping etc) once the warranty runs out. The increased CO2 for the petrol model is offset for me by the increases Oxides of Nitrogen/Fine Particulate pollution from the diesel, so this is a draw for me. There was a review of the petrol and diesel GT's, which gave the handling edge to the TDI. I assume this is because the golfs are set up for a heavier lump of iron at the front.

I test drove both the diesel and t he petrol models, but they were short runs with a salesman droning on in my ear. My recollection is that the 1.4 was a lovely smooth takeoff, but the TDI was a lot more fun in reasonably fast moving traffic.

Normally I'd just harass a dealer for a bunch of extended test drives, however I'm buying mine on a company novated lease which gives me great prices (10% off the base, and no GST), but I cant in all concience ask for test drives from someone I know will never get the sale.

So, the things I'm concerned about are

1. The incredible rising cost of hydrocarbons
2. The chance that the extra noise of the TDI will start to drive me insane after a while
3. That little turbo lag when you put your foot down at the lights with the TDI
4. The ride quality of the GTI in everyday driving on sydney roads
5. The longevity of the 1.4 GT motor
6. The handling edge the Diesel GT is said to have over the petrol GT
7. The fact that the MKV golf might be the last one coming to Australia for a while
8. No BioDiesel option for the TDI (unless you get rid of the particulate filter)

Any informed or uninformed opinions would be welcome

Thanks
John

[dangerous_daveo]

You're still technically paying for the car, I mean company novated lease or not, if you didnt have a car you would have that money in wages. I'd try for a longer test drive. If you really can't live with yourself offer to pay for the fuel or something. But even 12 months in a car is a long time if your not happy with it.

[GTom]

1. The incredible rising cost of hydrocarbons --- Isn't everything? But you would also have to have a look at the amount of Km's you drive per year to the extra cost of Diesel and Capex.

2. The chance that the extra noise of the TDI will start to drive me insane after a while --- I didn't find that toooooo noticeable, maybe on very long drives, but hey theres always the stereo... But i sometimes get annoyed easily so it has the potential to piss people off

3. That little turbo lag when you put your foot down at the lights with the TDI --- Some people like this and think it gives the car character, personally i didn't like the massive surge as I do alot of km in Sydney traffic and has the potential to piss me off.

4. The ride quality of the GTI in everyday driving on sydney roads --- Can't say didn't test it

5. The longevity of the 1.4 GT motor --- VW say a given 300,000km, that around 10 years worth on VERY VERY long drives

6. The handling edge the Diesel GT is said to have over the petrol GT --- TSI is lighter then the diesel.... gets to 100 quicker .

7. The fact that the MKV golf might be the last one coming to Australia for a while --- Heresay live now not what some crackpot writes up...

8. No BioDiesel option for the TDI (unless you get rid of the particulate filter) --- Can't really comment on that one.


I will have in my possession a new MY08 Golf GT TSI hopefully by the end of this month.

It all comes down to what you want, they might have the same shell and badge but under the bonnet lie 2 very different beasts, Both are excellent engines.

P.s.... I'm not much of a greeny I'm just getting the GT coz its a technological marvel and has won engine of the year last year and the 1.4L category 2 years straight.

[gerhard]

You have commited a cardinal sin, my son

You admit you like the way the petrol takes off smoothly, and are musing about the turbo lag and the noise of the diesel.......yet you have not driven the GTI.

My friend, I promise you if you drive the GTI on the bad roads you mention (and the better ones) you will instantly forget the other 2 models - I know I did.

I didn't drive the TSI at all, but I took the GT TDI for a run. I didn't really like it much in the slow suburban running, I didn't really like the mini turbo lag on takeoff, but LOVED the performance once under way on the freeway. 80 to 130 in the blink of an eye, a big surge of grunt - marvelous stuff.

I thought I would get used to it because it is such a brilliant package, green and all, nice idea 1000k from a tank, etc, but that little niggle remained - will that lag, and the noise eventually drive me crazy?

Bugger it, test the GTI, stop pi$$ing around, I told myself. Eureka - every niggle disappeared, the TDI disappeared from my thoughts completely. The extra 2.0l/100k isn't that big a deal, the stereo in the GTI is much better, the driving experience is better too.

1.5 weeks to wait still, till I get my sweaty mitts on the GTI (4 door, Blue Graphite, DSG, Latte leather

[OzzyJohn]

Still not completely decided.

Hmm,
i'm still painfully aware that i'll be paying for the car, i think if i can get another dealer to match the deal the leasing company will buy through them, given that i've got a trade in (anybody want a 2000 volvo convertible ?), and plenty of time I might arrange some more test drives on that basis.

On RRP there's only 2K between the TDI and the GTI with the satnav installed

The GTI you get

6 stacker CD player (who cares with a 30G Hard drive in the satnav ..)
Alarm as standard
Low tyre pressure indicator
Better stereo (??) 10 speakers vs 8 ?? - No difference with sanav ??
Sexier steering wheel (whatever ...)
Better/Different suspension comonents (or just differently adjusted ?)
Worse fuel economy vs TDI, almost the same vs TSI GT
Less weight (dont know where they took it from)
A well recognised classic

The GT you get

Winter driving program (= no turbo, no torque option)
Anti theft wheel bolts

Have I missed anything ?

Given that I probably wont be doing much more than 15,000Km/year the diesel advantage seems to go away a fair bit.

Anyone care to take a stab at the extra costs of insurance and the comparative resale value between the GT and GTI after 3 years ?

[Greg Roles]

Welcome John.

It's a pickle, but what great choices eh?

As you can see each person who replies will tell you WHY their car of choice is the best. I chose the TDI over the TSI and the GTI, all in stock, all driven extensively on the same morning. Hard choice for sure.

John, I stepped out of a FPV GT auto. No such thing as lag, or lack of power anywhere, just plant your foot, smoke em, and hold as deep as you dare. That said, the TDI and the obvious diesel turbo lag has been easy to overcome in a manual, but I'm sure the DSG'ers like Logzy, also from a V8 background can let you know how they drive "around" the lag. Sure, you have the odd off boost hesitation here and there, but for me, it's half the fun. I actually feel I have to drive the car again, if I wanted ultimate smoothness, I'd drive a euro accord like my mum. Can't even hear if the flippin engine is going and smooth as. I'm not old enough for that level of driving detachment as yet ( thank god! )

Basically I'd rate the GTI as the "younger" generation car, the GT's as the "mid life" types. Sure age has little to do with that, but if you want pure performance, you'd be silly not to choose the GTI. If, like me, you are OVER jiggling around everywhere, and pissing off your lady, then the softer, more user friendly GT's are a perfect comprimise. Not as "transport" as the comfortline, but not as hard, knife edge as the GTI. In my opinion, as you age, you tend to value comfort as much as outright speed. I'm just clinging to my thirties, hence my intermediate GT choice.

No offence intended to any grandpa's driving GTI's or Mischa wipper snappers driving GT's, it's just a generalisation. Given there's not really a lot of money, or performance difference between them, it does indeed make for a lot of choice in the category.

In my opinion, as a very happy oiler:

1. Sure cars matter hydrocarbon wise, but if you SERIOUSLY want to reduce your impact and greenhouse effects, consider how much meat you eat. This has a FAR greater impact than people want to think about. Also, you're buying a 4 cylinder, not a guzzling SUV, so pat yourself on the back!

2. I have actually removed all my engine shrouds and it makes the diesel even more obvious. I actually like it. At highway speeds it isn't noticable at all, and I get more noise from roofracks. It's like living next to a trainline, you just get used to it. It's only really noisy in the shopping centre car park, at normal speeds it just sounds like an engine to me!

3. I think you'll find the aftermarket chips will eventually target the potential lag with the DSG, as I reckon it would be it's only downfall. It's also why I chose to drive a busy, yet entertaining manual. I can decide if I lag or not thanks to mr clutch slip. But then my lady doesn't drive it.....

4. If that's even a consideration, then you won't like the harshness of the GTI suspension. That was the main reason I didn't buy the very hot and horny grey GTI I test drove. Too harsh. Superb car otherwise!

5. If you are really thinking long term, then the TDI is your puppy. Everyone knows diesels go forever.

6. In reality, I reckon you'd have to be good to pick it. I actually felt the TDI was more lead tipped arrow, but either car made my FPV trade look stoopid around corners!

7. What does that matter either way really? Really?

8 .I will be going Bio eventually, and never expected it to be a costless, no mod option. DPF is something you can easily work around, and will have to as ALL new diesels will be coming out with this technology to meet new emission laws. Fraid you'll HAVE to deal with the DPF sooner or later if Bio is the plan!

I agree you should test drive a GTI, even if you can arrange someone on here to take you for a burn. I'd say to attend a meet in your area!!

Good luck, and happy days ahead as there isn't really a bad choice here!!

[Greg Roles]

Hmm......

Anyone care to take a stab at the extra costs of insurance and the comparative resale value between the GT and GTI after 3 years ?

I got AAMI quotes within $10 between the GT and the GTI, and I'd reckon the GTI will ALWAYS have more appeal, as it is after all car of the year all over the place. Still, if fuel costs $10 a litre in 2011, then the appeal of running Bio in a diesel would have to be big....

I'd also "see" a GT as being thrashed less secondhand.....except for mine of course!!

[Mischa]

wow impressive quality thread going on here im... impressed.

you seemed to have all the ups and downs sussed out, so now its just a matter of driving them all and making a decision about the money.

on the topic of turbolag... its very very fun hehehehe

basically the diesel is a whole lump of torque over a small rev range, the tsi is the opposite as you have to rev the crap out of it to get performance and the gti is a little bit in the middle. thats how they seem in my head at least.

you'll love whatever you choose so dont worry too much.

welcome to the forum/community.

[jb747]

As a new Vdubber, the breadth of their range of sporty cars is impressive. Not only does there seem to be a car for everyone, but, because they overlap, there really seems to be more than one that would suit each buyer.

I did my test driving and bought an R32....that's what suited. But I also drove GTI and GT, and both had a strong argument. And, I don't think you should forget the EOS either...I very much enjoyed my drive of the turbo petrol version.

I've not spent much time with the diesel in traffic, but what I have is a overwhelming memory of lag away from the lights. On the other hand, I also recall tremendous mid range grunt. Tyres and handling were not bad, but not really comparable with the GTI and R32. If you want to throw a GT around, I think you'd have to budget some more $ for an upgrade of the underpinnings.

It's nice to have so much choice...

[Maverick]

The GTI you get

6 stacker CD player (who cares with a 30G Hard drive in the satnav ..)
Alarm as standard
Low tyre pressure indicator
Better stereo (??) 10 speakers vs 8 ?? - No difference with sanav ??
Sexier steering wheel (whatever ...)
Better/Different suspension comonents (or just differently adjusted ?)
Worse fuel economy vs TDI, almost the same vs TSI GT
Less weight (dont know where they took it from)
A well recognised classic

The GT you get

Winter driving program (= no turbo, no torque option)
Anti theft wheel bolts

Have I missed anything ?

I was in the same boat a while ago and had a GT TDI fully optioned on order for 3+ months before Austral VW wanted to screw me for another $5K+ after I had traded my car, I ended up taking my trade back and buying a GTI from another dealer. IMO the GTI is a better option.

The GTI won't have a 6 stacker if you take the satnav as this is in the head unit.

The GTI is lighter as the diesel adds about 30kg to the engine weight.

The difference between the suspension is that the GT has firmer dampers fitted, the springs are the same (the front are slightly heavier duty because of the Diesel's weight).

The GTI has sportier seats and the wheel which IMO is much nicer then the GT.

The GT can have the low pressure indicated fitted reasonably easily.

The GTI has anti theft bolts as well.

I like the wheels on the GT but the GTI ones I like just as much now, at first I wasn't so sure.

The GT has that dark black trim around the dash, the brushed aluminum on the GTI (and the brushed chrome on the lower models) looks a lot nicer. The black is just too dark and when you have the dark interior it's too much black. Consider getting the lighter leather/trim as it looks very nice but it's hard to find a car with it so it would have to be a factory order.

The DPF on the Diesel can be a limiter on power increases whereas the GTI can be easily modded.

With the Diesel prices the way they are the difference between the GTI and TDI's cost per km is pretty close.

The GTI has a 250watt amp and 10 speakers standard, the GT has no amp and 8 speakers standard. When you add the satnav they remove the amp but you get 10 speakers. Don't ask why as I have no idea. I had to purchase a GTI without satnav due to timing as my car was due to be paid out and picked up one that was coming in so had the 250watt amp. I fitted a RNS510 so now have the satnav and the amp working. I can't tell you if it makes a huge difference as I haven't compared it to car without the amp.

The GTI will have better resale value and lower running costs, the diesel can be more expensive to maintain. Both have 12 monthly services but I plan to do an oil change every 6 months on the GTI (which I may not have done on the Diesel but probably would have).

Once you've driven the GTI you probably will drop the idea of the GT, I only drove the GT before I signed up for one but after driving the GTI I'm glad I ended up with one as it's a fantastic car. The GT TDi is a fantastic car as well and you won't go wrong with either one, really comes down to which one you like the best.

[dangerous_daveo]

Just to be annoying. If you're worried about the whole greeny thing. Don't go buying a new car. The amount of greenhouse and resources that go in to building a new car outweigh pretty much any co2 savings the engine might bring. As I said, just to be annoying

[livingthedream]

When to the dealer to test drive the Jetta TDI and TFSI. Dealer didnt have any in stock so we went with the golf equivelants. here is my thoughts.

Test drove both the TDI Golf and GTI. Drove the TDI first: nice comfortable drive, great uphills but the lag annoyed me. it was my first drive of a turb diesel ever so was the jury was out. Then jumped in the GTI, got 300m down the road and knew straight away, thhat this was the one for me. Smoother power without the lag. I then enjoyed the rest of my drive and playing with the DSG but i didn't enjoy the firmer suspension which i noticed straightaway (except for when it came to corners), but the wife didnt until the rougher roads.

all in all, drive them both then decide, that way youll never fie wondering and will be happy whatever you choose.

[Paul_OH]

We ended up opting for the GT TSI after driving it, the Pacific TDI, GT TDI and GTI.

Here's our reasons:
The Grunt of the GT TDI was fun but I thought it would end up tiring quite quickly.
The GTI was nice but found the ride too jiggly (and cost was an issue)
The Pacific TDI was nice but a bit too plain
The GT TSI, we found it to have the nicest powerband with a lot of low down torque. I think whoever says the TSI is a screamer and you have to rev it to get power hasn't driven one. I actually thought it was more tractable than the GTI but that's just my opinion and possibly placebo. Also the economy is great and one reason why we were looking at the diesels to start with.

They're all great cars in their own right and with similar(ish) power outputs but all have different ways of delivering it.

We also ran some approx numbers on todays fuel prices and based on 5 years/100,000km the GT TDI was still going to end up costing us more due to the initial vehicle cost and fuel cost. In some ways I was hoping it wouldn't but it didn't.

You really have to drive them yourself to appreciate the different characteristics of each. Of course everyone on here will state why their choice is/was best but that won't necessarily suit you.

Just my 0.02

Paul

[BarneyBoy]

They're all good cars - the TSI, the GTI and the TDI.

One thing however, the TDI may well be almost the same price as a GTI, but the TSI is $5000 less than the GTI (5 door). And has the same retained value.

Yes, the GTI does have quite a few extra bits & pieces, but the way I viewed it - the GT was still equipped very, very well and offered something the other two didn't: no-lag-what-so-ever. And if you can bear to drive it like a nanna, will do astonishing mileage.

But as I said at the start, they're all really good cars...

[orsegtsport]

Just to be annoying. If you're worried about the whole greeny thing. Don't go buying a new car. The amount of greenhouse and resources that go in to building a new car outweigh pretty much any co2 savings the engine might bring. As I said, just to be annoying

This is true to an extent, but it really depends on what sort of car you are coming from and how many km you travel, as to whether or not it will make a difference. Typically, there is about 5 tonnes of CO2 associated with the production of an average motor vehicle. So let's take our mate Greg (cogdoc) as an example of a someone who has changed from a large thirsty car to a frugal one.

He has come from a 5.4l V8 FPV GT, which, based on an average fuel consumption of 15l/100km and 20000km traveled, will put out around 6.9 tonnes of CO2 per annum. He has now jumped into a 2l diesel GT, which, based on an average fuel consumption of a 6l/100km and annual mileage of 20000 km, will put out approximately 3 tonnes of CO2 per year (3.9t per annum less than the V8 ). Therefore Greg will have offset the CO2 emissions associated with the production of his new car by about the 15 month mark.

CO2 emissions associated with motor vehicles in Australia, accounts for about only 7% or 8% of the total. So in the grand scheme of things, changing to a low emissions vehicle won't make a great deal of difference unfortunately, but that's not the point as far as I'm concerned, it's about at least trying to do the right thing, and I think it's great if people take an interest in their vehicle emissions, because there will likely be a flow on effect, and they will take notice of their environmental impact in all areas of their lives.

Some other interesting figures to consider:

Diesel cars produce approximately 2.7 kg CO2 per litre
Petrol cars produce approximately 2.3 kg CO2 per litre
LPG cars produce approximately 1.5 kg CO2 per litre.
Diesel cars are typically 25 - 30% more economical than the equivalent petrol model.
LPG cars use 15 -20% more fuel than the equivalent petrol model.
Currently diesel costs about 14% more per litre than ULP, and 65% more than LPG.

So diesels actually produce more CO2 per unit volume of fuel burned and cost more to fill, but use so much less fuel per distance traveled, that they still come out on top (although some LPG cars may be slightly cheaper to run at the moment).

The debate will always continue over whether diesels are actually worse for the environment than petrol cars, due to the particulates and NOx produced, but particulate filters mean that there isn't much between the two now in terms of the other harmful nasties these days.