TSI or GTI? That is the question . . .

[metrolex]

I've pretty much exhausted the Pacific TDI vs GT TDI issue in the earlier post: "Pacific is New Sportline and Undermines value of GT TDI".

(BTW, my conclusion is that the GT TDI is a rocket but for the predominantly city driving we do it is difficult to justify the $5k difference now that the Pacific has been upgraded to almost Sportline spec with ESP thrown in. But that discussion is for the previous ("Pacific") thread . . .

The thoughtful comments in the Pacific thread have helped me to conclude that I should stick with a petrol-engined Golf for the mostly stop-start city driving we do (my wife won't put up with the greater diesel lag after driving a GTI).

I now need to consider whether the TSI or GTI is the better option (each would be fully manual).

I know which is the better car, but which is the better value proposition overall (given we only do about 10,000km of most inner-city driving).

Can I count on your informed comments again?

Thanks in anticipation
JB.

[Greg Roles]

Having driven all three of the 4 banger choices in one morning I'd have to say you can't go wrong with ANY of them. It was a tough tough choice between the "three", even more so as all three varients were in my choice colours, specs and ready to buy on the day!

If start stop city traffic is you main concern, you'd be mad NOT to get DSG. It certainly transforms the diesel drive, but I understand the oiler power delivery isn't "smooth" and that it's offputting for people who want the "Honda Accord" loungesuite experience. That is, smooth, quiet and what I'd call "detached" from that smelly engine thingy.

The GTI is indeed a mighty mighty fun and effortless drive, but for me the suspension was just too harsh. The motor, the grunt, specs and presentation were all top notch. Depends on your roads. I do a lot of "B" grade semi country stuff, and the GT is a perfect compromise between comfort and performance. My girlie HAS to be kept comfortable too, so I get your problem!

The petrol cars with their bigger rev range mean less cog swapping in a manual. The TSI is going to have a longer fuel range, which means less servo visits. The downside is the premium fuel, but the upside is lower emissions over the car of the year.

Keep the missus happy and get the earlier delivered GTI. If you are fine with the ride and fuel range, it's a PERFECT choice. Gawd, imagine "having" to put up with a GTI....

[Timbo]

Just to add to confusion, we went through this whole process in selecting the wife's next car....and ended up deciding on the GT TDI DSG. The TSI is a good drive, but it's a complex motor with both s/c and t/c, suggesting higher costs down the track...or the likelihood of lower resale values.

If you want petrol, get the GTI, IMHO....but if you have a fuel economy issue then you'd be mad not to stick with the TDI, which I don't think has a serious lag issue, especially with DSG

[ozgriff]

Or if you really think there is lag, I suppose the TDI with DSG and an ecu program would be great. Anyone chipped the TDI can comment on being a smoother ride?

Having the GTI the suspension is livable, you appreciate it when you go around a long bend with no body movement. The effortless nature of getting to speed is also great. It is a daily driver with the ability to go hard.

It seems to me you aren't after 'cheaper' but a value car. The GTI IMO is a great value package, there is no car in its price range I would swap it for.

[Logzy]

Just to add to confusion, we went through this whole process in selecting the wife's next car....and ended up deciding on the GT TDI DSG. The TSI is a good drive, but it's a complex motor with both s/c and t/c, suggesting higher costs down the track...or the likelihood of lower resale values.

If you want petrol, get the GTI, IMHO....but if you have a fuel economy issue then you'd be mad not to stick with the TDI, which I don't think has a serious lag issue, especially with DSG

Agree, the lag is not an issue especially as the dsg learns youre driving style and you get used to driving it.

[Tim]

Im thinking its going to depend on what sort of driving experience you are after? Have you mentioned that yet?

Id think for the average commuter the ride comfort in the GTI may be a little bit lacking? Certainly its quite choppy over crappy inner city roads. My parents commented on it when i picked them up from the airport last time. They hated the high seat bolsters too. Cos it made it harder for them to get in and out of the car. Its great if you enjoy a spirited drive though which is why I went for the GTI.

A jetta may be able to supply you with the GTI performance you enjoyed but with some extra ride comfort if thats what youre seeking?

As for the TSI. Its amazing technology. Not quite as stiff a ride. nicely featured. Has less bolstered seats which seems to be a hit with the ladies. But i dunno. There is always that little thought in the back of my mind that thinks what if as soon as the warranty runs out and u hit 100k kms you need to fork out for a new turbo and a supercharger rebuild? Its just a big unknown.
I would think the TSI would make a better daily driver for the average commuter. But are u the average commuter?

[Mixer]

I got out of my GTI yesterday and had a quick run around some favourite roads in an Evo 9, and man I want to make the suspension in my GTI stiffer

I always throught my GTI was nice and quick, but the Evo is like a GTI with afterbuirners!!!

Back on topic: If fuel economy is not a major concern (10,000km aint much), go for the GTI. Its still very economical, and just a simple turbo means less potentially to go wrong, and well proven resale. Lot easier to clean the wheels too!

The suspension will soften too once the car is broken in.

[Greg Roles]

The suspension will soften too once the car is broken in.

With your girlfriend?

[jb747]

I'm running an R32, and I don't find the suspension choppy at all. In fact, I'm amazed by just how much compliance it has, especially given that it's even lower than the GTI, and has such low profile tyres. Oh, and I'm on the far side of 50, so it's not because I'm a youngster.

I don't think I'd let imagined technology issues put me off the TSI engine. Neither supercharging or turbo charging is something that inherently makes an engine unreliable, and in the case of this engine, with the supercharger filling in the bottom end and then being removed from the system, I doubt that the overall wear and tear would be any worse than an engine with turbo alone. These engines will become common over the next few years... Actually, I would be more concerned for the second hand values of a GTI, as, almost by definition, it will have been subjected to substantial spirited driving...whereas the GT will have been chosen by someone for whom economy is more of an issue.

[mrx]

I don't find the GTI suspension too firm, but then I live in Perth where the roads are as smooth as a baby's behind.

I guess it depends what you're used to. It seems a few of the GT TDI drivers have come from Falcadores, so I can understand why they would find the GTI choppy compared to their heavy, longer wheelbase, cruisers.

[BarneyBoy]

Couldn't agree more with cogdoc's comments - all 3 are a great buy.

I actually went to the dealer intending to buy a GTI, but settled on the TSI (the TDI wasn't available at the time) because it was easier FOR ME to live with daily. A tad softer in the suspension, easier access/egress with the slightly less bolstered seats, but with 95% of the equipment (ESC, ABS &c).

As far as the fuel goes, I can't pick any drop in performance using 95 octane, so I use that instead of 98 from time to time, doubling my choices at the bowser. The DSG is great for city driving (for me) and I don't much miss a manual (it's my 1st 'auto' ever).

VW trialled (18 I think) TSI motors in pre-production and found zero faults after 300,000 kms, so no matter what folks say about 'complexity', the only difference between the TSI and the TDI/GTI is the supercharger. And VW seem to have done their homework in that regard.

Resale is also a moot point with these cars as they all promise relatively great value.
From Red Book retained value after 3 years:
TSI DSG 63%
TDI DSG & 6sp 63%
TSI 6sp 64%
GTI 4 door DSG & 6sp 65%
GTI DSG & 6sp 3 door 66%

So resale is pretty good - better than most of the Mercedes range - and way better than 37% for a Futura Wagon or a Maybach 62! Or 35% for a Proton Satria

It's not too hard to crunch the numbers:
Purchase price, kms travelled/year, fuel used, resale &c.. But don't let only that number make your mind up. It's only one part of the equation.

At the end of the day you really need to drive them all, and both you and your partner need to like your final choice. But make sure you drive them ALL - you don't want to die wondering...

Good luck - your final decision will never be a bad one.

[h100vw]

I reckon that TSI is good compromise in the equation. I haven't been in one but I reckon Barney's kept up well the other weekend when we went for a ride out in the country.

As for reliability, the turbo should last for ages, look at all the mk4 GTIs, turbo Passats etc built in the last 10 years. Even when they do give up, it's well over 200,000 Ks. That wouldn't woryy me.

After VW got bitten gently with the G60, I don't reckon they'd be keen for a repeat, so the supercharger will be well up to the job as well.

Gavin

[jb747]

I rather suspect that your TSI will have better resale than my R32. But then I knew that when I bought it....

It's all horses for courses. I've owned plenty of manuals, and a couple of autos over the years. I had an open mind with the VW, but the DSG won me over, and I'm glad I went that way.

The missus and I test drove every VW we could get our hands on...the only sporty that we didn't drive was the GT TSI. All of them were 'different' cars, and would appeal to different people for different reasons. But, all of them were good cars, and I think I could probably have lived with any of them. Right now I'm nudging a friend towards an Eos (probably TDI), and my sister towards the GT TDI DSG.

[BarneyBoy]

I reckon that TSI is good compromise in the equation. I haven't been in one but I reckon Barney's kept up well the other weekend when we went for a ride out in the country.

Gavin

Kept up? It wasn't 'til I got home I realised the handbrake had been on the whole time...

jb747:
"I rather suspect that your TSI will have better resale than my R32. But then I knew that when I bought it...."

FWIW, it's the same 63% as a TSI DSG - although if 98RON hits $2+, things could change
While the s/c does make a nice noise, it 'ain't nothin' compared to an angry R car!

[jb747]

FWIW, it's the same 63% as a TSI DSG - although if 98RON hits $2+, things could change

It will at some point, but then I expect that the pricing relative to diesel will remain the same. I'll drive just as much as I do now, but drink cheaper wine.