2.0 TSFI & drivetrain reliability woes?

[Jester_Fu]

I have a MK3 Polo and it has been a very expensive exercise, especially in the last year. It is with great trepidation that I am about to purchase a MK5 Golf GTi. VW's are expensive for their servicing and sometimes badly designed and built. The plastic/rubber timing belt and associated maintenance is a problem. When are VW going to replace it with a chain?????

Honda Timing belt for the last 15 years - Rubber.
Toyota Timing belt for the last 15 years - Rubber.
Mitsubishi Timing belt for the last 10 years - Rubber

See a pattern emerging here? According to your logical some of the most popular cars on the road are all problematic due to rubber timing belts.

The only maintenance that should be required to a timing belt is replacement at the interval specified by the manufacturer. Don't replace the timing belt then, be it on your own head! They've all been self tensioning for quite some time. All you need to do is replace and install it properly, and there'll never be an issue.

Chain timing belts come with their own set of problems. Chain does still stretch and wear, it's generally a much bigger job to replace, it's noisier when running and presents the same potential for failure as a rubber belt. If you'd ever replaced a timing chain on an overhead cam'ed engine... you'd change your mind on just what a great idea they are compared to changing a rubber timing belt...

[ozgriff]

Chain timing belts get complained about all the time.

They were a specific problem on the last car brand I owned. Like above, they do stretch, are hard to replace, and they can create some unwanted noise.

As for which is better, chain or rubber? I couldn't say.

[VW Convert]

I was reading the Dog & Lemon Guide 2007 and it bagged VW and the Golf range pretty badly.

It commented on unproven, expensive technology that fails in real world applications and referred to the numerous surveys out on customer dissatisfaction.

I'm considering a Octavia vRS which is built on same drivetrain and wanted some opinions and experiences.

To be honest D&G bags essentially every car maker bar Toyota, Honda and Subaru.

Perhaps they would have us driving a horse and buggy or worse still bore us to death driving Toyotas! If the technology is so unproven why are so many others copying it? For example the DSG transmission where a number of manufacturers are busily working on their own versions.

My personal experience (with only 30,000 KM on the clock) is that the TFSI engine is a gem and so is the DSG, combined they are an awesome package.

Cheers

George

[BarneyBoy]

A 1.8 TSI (Supercharger and Turbocharger) engine would be WAY more powerful than than the existing 2.0 FSI (if the 1.4 TSI has 125Kw, then a 1.8 version with the same specific output would probably deliver something like 160Kw, sounds like a good option for the Golf GTI Mk 6 )

I understood also that the 2.0FSI would be replaced by a 1.8TSI.
1.8 is apparently the largest capacity that currently uses the TSI technology efficiently and effectively.

2.0 litres and over are subject to internal friction and reciprocating masses that don't work so well. Still, I'd be happy with 160 -170 kW with that nice light whine of the blower along with an even bigger, flatter torque curve!

[gregozedobe]

It appears VAG are "redefining" what their engine acronyms mean (presumably as some kind of marketing strategy ?

From the UK Briskoda forum:
"The 1.8TSI and 1.8TFSI are the same engine just branded differently, it's an all new unit from Audi. It replaces the 2.0 FSI. You will still have the 2.0 TFSI engine in the vRS (or RS outside of the UK). I think the logic behind it is to have a choice of FSI,TSI and TDI.

You have to be careful as there is also the 1.4TSI that is the twin charge engine found in the Golf GT amongst others but the 1.8 TSI is a normal turbocharged unit."

That seems to indicate that (at least for the new 16v 1.8 Turbo petrol motor, not to be confused with the old 20v unit) TFSI = TSI, depending on the brand (Audi, Skoda, VW) and country(?).

If consistency was at all important VAG need to come up with a new acronym for the twincharger 1.4 TSI enine that we currently get in the petrol Golf GT, anyone want to speculate what it will be ? STI maybe (won't need any extra letters, can use existing TSI badges) ? Just when it all seemed to be consistent and logical the marketing boffins get in there and confuse us all.

It didn't make sense to me to replace the naturally aspirated 2.0 petrol with a twincharger 1.8 petrol, as the latter would be much more powerful AND a lot more expensive to make (as well as having more performance than the "halo" GTI motor). The new 1.8 Turbo petrol is a more logical replacement (slight increase in power, more torque lower down, probably slightly more expensive to make).

If us enthusiasts are getting confused, I don't know what the average buyer will make of it all

[Splashalot]

Was reading about the 1.8TFSI engine here:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/2060928.006/new-audi-1.8-tfsi-engine-revealed

It sounds like an absolute peach of an engine:
"at just 1,000 rpm, the new 1.8 TFSI develops a torque of 165 Nm, with maximum torque (250nm) available very early on and across the extremely broad range of 1,500 to 4,200 rpm."

Other notable features are:
- 9.6:1 compression ratio allows use of 95RON; and
- chain drive to camshaft, oil pump and balancer shafts (no more freaking camshaft belt changes!)

I'm really hoping this engine makes it into the Jetta soon. I'd definitely buy one.

SS

[jets]

Chain timing belts come with their own set of problems. Chain does still stretch and wear, it's generally a much bigger job to replace, it's noisier when running and presents the same potential for failure as a rubber belt. If you'd ever replaced a timing chain on an overhead cam'ed engine... you'd change your mind on just what a great idea they are compared to changing a rubber timing belt...[/QUOTE]

Don't forget the cost of the chain/s. My brother in law replaced the timing chain on the first model Magna many years ago. If my memory serves me correctly the genuine price was over $500 & then you have got to install it.

[Splashalot]

Having had 4 years of cambelt-related anxiety in our Alfa 147, I think I'd rather the greater security a chain offers, thanks.

I'm not doubting that chains can break too, but a quick perusal of www.alfaowner.com will show an alarming number of belt breakages and consequent engine rebuilds.

I trust (hope like hell, actually) VW's rubber belts and associated camshaft/tensioner pulley designs are more durable.

SS

[Transporter]

Having had 4 years of cambelt-related anxiety in our Alfa 147, I think I'd rather the greater security a chain offers, thanks.

I'm not doubting that chains can break too, but a quick perusal of www.alfaowner.com will show an alarming number of belt breakages and consequent engine rebuilds.

I trust (hope like hell, actually) VW's rubber belts and associated camshaft/tensioner pulley designs are more durable.

SS

Timing belts are actually made of fiberglass, nylon and chloroprene, rubber components.
They are stronger and better in high temperatures than these made 10 or more years ago.
A lot of manufacturers are reverting back to chain driven camshafts now.

[jets]

I am sure that behind almost every belt failure there is a story. Previous owner knows he will sell the car & ignores the belt change. New owner doesn't even know there is a belt to change, no bad engine noises & keeps charging on. Another I know personally [FIAT 124 sports], massive oil leak, haven't got time to fix, bang. On the 2.5TDI T4 [ Audi motor] belt drives water pump, probably a lot of other engines as well. If water pump brgs seize, teeth strip on belt etc. I think one of the problems of the belt is the time/cost of changing. On the T4 forum some members are paying nearly 1000 pounds to have the belt, pump etc changed, thats nearly half the cost of the van in some cases.
RE. chain drives, I would rather remove the head on a belt driven cam. On a Mercedes I once owned, no join in chain so out comes the angle grinder.
I agree that there maybe more security in a chain, it gets noisier as it wears, but I read recently on a US site where a sprocket wore prematurely & slipped.
Finally I have owned belt driven VWs for at least 25 years, some with high mileage, & never had a problem. [touch wood]