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Intercooler testing and details

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  • Intercooler testing and details

    Recently i have had quite a few people ask me about intercoolers and i would like to share some thoughts and detail.

    Generally speaking any form of forced induction engine benefits from intercoolers.
    The primary function is to cool or reduce the air intake temp being introduced into the engine.
    All Turbo and superchargers increase the temp of the intake air of a engine purely by compressing the air to start with
    Compressing air generates heat which a simple fact.
    The more compressed it is the more heat is generated, ie the greater the PSI the hotter it gets.
    The hotter the air gets, as its introduced into a engine, the less power it will actually make.

    Now lets take say 10 psi of boost feed it into a intercooler, and you may measure on the intake of intercooler say 70deg C, but on outlet of intercooler it may measure 30deg C the resultant temperature drop is called efficiency of the intercooler, for the previous example works out to 42% efficient.

    Now there are various types of intercoolers out there. there most common ones are air to air intercoolers based on two basic constructions, Bar and Plate, and Tube & Fin.
    There are also air to water of varying designs including the new type with cood results called the laminova.

    But for this discussion we will concentrate on the air to air type as that is what is mostly used in most road cars.

    Bar and plate rely in think pieces of aluminium which is utilized as a "heat sink" and passed the air between the plates.
    These typically are a little cheaper to make and cool well in Drag car type applications, where there is little air flow at stationary position and the thick aluminium plates take a little time to heat up allowing them good initial efficiency for the duration of a drag.

    Tube and fin, well there are basically a extruded aluminium tube with internal fins, there are made to maximize the surface contact of the air to aluminium,
    there are efficient when surrounding air passes though the core to radiate the heat, which reasonable air flow and good design extrusion they are shown to be more efficient than bar and plate. At a standstill or little air flow
    they can "heat soak" more easily than bar and plate, but become for efficient when vehicle is moving.

    So the other factor comes in effciency is the delta factor which is rate of change. So what can also bees seen from this is if a bar and plate take longer to heat up, it will also take longer to cool down.
    So varying intercoolers all have their pros and cons and comes down to the real application.

    Now testing of intercoolers.
    Well we have to look at real world application.
    ie that is a Road car running say a turbo.

    Now to test a intercooler, the absolute best way is setting up temperature sensor on intake and outlet of intercooler whilst driving.
    This way you can mesure exactly what is happening whilst driving taking into account the effect of outside air flow at speeds you are driving at.
    In car and real driving conditions are the only way to accurately see how it is working.

    I am yet to see any company irrespective of what they may design and test inside a workshop/factory, go out are nothing fails and win a race..
    All top companies will fit out the final product with a mass load of data Acquisition and measure in on the road, racetrack or what ever and make changes accordingly.
    This bring me to the topic of testing on a dyno.
    This is all well and fine, however 99% of chassis dyno setups have insufficient air flow to simulate road conditions.

    Most chassis dyno have around 8-12 mph fan pointed into one point of the car.
    But what does a car on the road experience?
    drving every where 8-12 mph?
    Oh no, between 35mph-60mph most common.
    race or track car 60mph to 240 mph?
    So what effects these speed differences make on intercoolers between chassis dyno fan and a car on the road?
    A lot of change in efficiency!
    The less boost you run, the less work the intercooler needs to do, the less likely you will heatsoak your intercooler and the less power you will loose.
    On the other hand the more boost you run, the harder your intercooler has to work and the more critical the air flow through the intercooler becomes to dissipate the heat.

    If we use a worst test example say a stock car running stock boost level
    and put it on a chassis dyno with only a 10 mph fan, you will find you do repeated runs and the intercooler does not heat soak too much and only a small power is lost with consecutive runs.
    Now increase the boost level.
    run the same again, you will see the intercooler heat soaks faster and more power is lost.

    So then is this going to happen on the road?
    No where near what was shown on dyno!!
    on the road you will have far more air going through intercooler,
    yes it will still heat soak a little faster than at stock levels, how ever you will have a reasonable amount of air going through the core to aid in cooling.
    So if you do a measurement of air temps both on the dyno and on the road, you will see the temps are totally different.
    You may all check this yourselves with VCDS cable and software in logging mode recording the air intake temps, and you will see the differences between on road and chassis dyno.
    Now simple answer could be why not get say a 60 mph fan.
    well its not practical in many workshops, firstly 60mph wind would blow you over, rip of the hood from the car and blow other stuff around.

    Second, what about cars with side mount intercooler?
    well most workshops have one fan directed at radiator, so what about air to sidemounts? Well they got little hope of working efficently.
    Take a look at a F1 car, left idling at stationary the engine will overheat, so when they need to run a car for stationary for a extended time, they clip on front of air ducts a electric fan to keep running air through core to stop car from overheating.

    No do not take me wrong here, any extra intercooling that is modified on a turbo or supercharged car will have some sort of benefit, you just have to make sure its the right setup for the right application.
    Going by some chassis dyno test alone is a waste of time and the results are meaning less.
    Many chassis dyno results of product testing is flawed as those tests alone as you can see to not replicate real vehicle road conditions.
    I suppose thats why they make wind tunnels!!
    The best setup is a speed controlled wind tunnel, where you can simulate the different real road air flow and varying speeds.

  • #2
    I am yet to see any company irrespective of what they may design and test inside a workshop/factory, go out are nothing fails and win a race..
    All top companies will fit out the final product with a mass load of data Acquisition and measure in on the road, racetrack or what ever and make changes accordingly.
    What are your thoughts on this testing?



    You don't see any merit in that data?

    And results of the APR Race cars are pretty good (and a good test bed for their products): http://www.goapr.com/race/

    Can you show us some of the data you have collected in your intercooler testing on MKV GTI's so we can compare your methods please? It would be a nice comparison after your extensive post.

    Thanks
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    • #3
      hot damn watching watching///////////
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      White 95 vr6, colour coad, koni, neuspeed, 16 x 9, samco!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Guy_H View Post
        What are your thoughts on this testing?



        You don't see any merit in that data?

        And results of the APR Race cars are pretty good (and a good test bed for their products): http://www.goapr.com/race/

        Can you show us some of the data you have collected in your intercooler testing on MKV GTI's so we can compare your methods please? It would be a nice comparison after your extensive post.

        Thanks
        Sorry if this is a silly question but weren't these results displayed on Saturday's dyno runs showing 200.4kw atw on pump gas?
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        • #5
          Well it's only a TDI, but I *believe* it's the same as the stock GTI intercooler. What TDI's do have is higher boost pressures running through it than a stock GTI, so I believe the turbo outlet temps would be higher.

          With a professional 4 channel digital thermometer, one probe immediately before, one immediately after, actually in the air flow, I found the following. PSI is at the manifold, not pre intercooler, which would be higher. Mine spikes to 25psi max at the manifold. I was losing a little due to the probe wires, as I could hear it whistling.

          27-28 degree day. Normal flowing traffic, 70 zone, 60-70kph, 10-15psi efforts. Pre IC 70-80 degree maxs, post nil effect. Intercooler always showed 5-8 degree rise over "ambient", about 35 degrees. I've found this to be "normal".

          32 degree day. Same normal traffic, same road. 5-10 psi efforts, saw 70's pre intercooler, and 40 degrees post, dropping to settle around 37-38 degrees on flat sections - lower boost driving. This is "normal" driving where I would guess most would sit.

          110kph on the highway, and booting it saw 100 degrees pre IC, with no effect post, remained at 40 degrees on a 30 plus degree day. Plenty of cooling air!

          Finally, a flat out effort up a windy twisty steep hill away from everyone in the country. Start in second, floor 3rd, and snatch 4th. Here's the plot from vag com of my EGT's and RPM's ( yep that's 4000rpm woohoo... ) but a whopping 800degC plus EGT effort.



          Effort done on a 32 degree day. Repeated days later, same result. Saw 120 degrees pre intercooler, and, the 40 degrees post I had been seeing on the way to the hill went to...42 degrees!!!. Sure it's only a minute at most, but it's a max effort at 23-25psi, and the stock plastic tanked intercooler handled it beautifully. For the road, and "normal" use the stock MKV intercooler is operating as a heatsink very well.

          At the light's, at idle, it's a WHOLE different story. 30 degree day. After a minute the post temps raise to 45 degrees, and at two minutes you're seeing beyond 50 degrees post IC. The problem is that even on moving off, the stock IC remains heatsoaked and pumps out 40-50 degree temps for minutes of normal driving, usually 4-7 minutes!!! This is where in normal use the stock IC will fall down for everyday use, and what I'm aiming to combat.

          Finally, adding specific sealing ducting to the front of the stock intercooler, which was Polar's great idea, has brought the everyday post temps almost down to pre, and the temp drop across the IC is only 2-3 degrees. It drops the heatsoak problem MINUTES faster on moving off. Made a huge difference.

          I've yet to test the water spray / fan combo in real driving, but I'm happy for now with the stock setup for temps for my usage. As for flow, well that remains to be seen...but I'm planning on testing it soon! I reckon the APR or even an S3 one would kill the stock GTI one there alone!
          Last edited by Greg Roles; 27-01-2010, 10:57 PM.
          2014 Skoda Yeti TDI Outdoor 4x4 | Audi Q3 CFGC repower | Darkside tune and Race Cams | Darkside dump pDPF | Wagner Comp IC | Snow Water Meth | Bilstein B6 H&R springs | Rays Homura 2x7 18 x 8" 255 Potenza Sports | Golf R subframe | Superpro sways and bushings | 034 engine mounts | MK6 GTI brakes |

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Guy_H View Post
            What are your thoughts on this testing?



            You don't see any merit in that data?
            In the sales spiel on that webpage they say the same thing that Lucas has said above
            "Given the fact that no dynamometer test cell can reproduce the airflow that a car on the open road gets, we are confident that differences between the APR intercooler and the stock one would be even more apparent on the street or track."

            They are basically saying their data is not applicable to the real world themselves. "we are confident" does not equate to real world data. Its an assumption


            Originally posted by Guy_H View Post
            And results of the APR Race cars are pretty good (and a good test bed for their products): http://www.goapr.com/race/
            From memory the APR race cars in the Koni challenge have to run max 12 psi boost(stock), stock exhaust minus cat and stock intake. So besides a torque arm insert and a swaybar made by hotchkis what parts do APR actually test in their races?
            Last edited by Tim; 27-01-2010, 11:14 PM.

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            • #7
              tim maybe stickers that dont come off under extreme loads...
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              White 95 vr6, colour coad, koni, neuspeed, 16 x 9, samco!

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              • #8
                As I asked in the second post, what does Lucas offer up in the way of testing & data.

                It's fine to make a nice post, but it leaves us a bit empty.

                I have lots of road data logs of GTI (MKV) on QLD Raceway (stage 1 & 2) with & without intercooler. After 2 laps the car with the APR intercooler was running an average of 15 degrees cooler than the car with the stock intercooler. The biggest difference (cool down) happened during the cornering, not down the straights (so it was the throttle off or part throttle that showed the cooler charge, therefore starting the full throttle cycle cooler), now we only hit speeds up to 215kmph there, but the slow corners are around 70kmph.

                Tim, Vehicle specs are here (Race mode):


                And thats race trim. What they get to test outside the races is free & not limited by the rules.
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                • #9

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                  • #10
                    Hot!

                    Things heating up so quickly!!!

                    Just like when I'm stuck in the Harbour tunnel.

                    Chill out! Crack a bottle of brew! Life too short.

                    My two cents....

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 10d View Post
                      Things heating up so quickly!!!
                      I think we need a bigger intercooler.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My god Guy, you have got no better things to do than to try pick a fight. QuickA4 was just technically explain how intercoolers work and your the first "tuner company" to post up a argumentative reply. Go back and do some work or spend some time with your kid will ya and get off the forum if you have no better things to say.

                        thats my 2 cents.

                        How old are you! grow up.....

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                        • #13
                          I'm just after an answer, it's a post in the MKV forum about intercoolers which I have done a lot of work on.

                          If he doesn't have an answer for me, please just say so. If its a general post about intercoolers, its a no brainer, there is even good info on Wikipedia:



                          If its MKV specific, thats why I'm asking the question.
                          sigpic

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Guy_H View Post
                            As I asked in the second post, what does Lucas offer up in the way of testing & data.

                            It's fine to make a nice post, but it leaves us a bit empty.

                            I have lots of road data logs of GTI (MKV) on QLD Raceway (stage 1 & 2) with & without intercooler. After 2 laps the car with the APR intercooler was running an average of 15 degrees cooler than the car with the stock intercooler. The biggest difference (cool down) happened during the cornering, not down the straights (so it was the throttle off or part throttle that showed the cooler charge, therefore starting the full throttle cycle cooler), now we only hit speeds up to 215kmph there, but the slow corners are around 70kmph.

                            Tim, Vehicle specs are here (Race mode):


                            And thats race trim. What they get to test outside the races is free & not limited by the rules.
                            Lucas seems to spend a lot of money on tools constantly and test equipement.
                            he has a work shop that he seems to be meticulous working on cars
                            every time i pop around he has purchased some new tool or gadget.
                            he has many type of test equipments including various analysers and data measuring equipment.
                            and he just got a TIG welder and is starting to learn how to TIG weld.

                            i ask him when he is going to get a new car, he said not interested, he is more concerned and about having tools to actually do work than to blow a trumpet man.
                            he fixes some really ****y problems that other workshops give up on.
                            he constantly requests cars to drop over for further analysis including going out and data logging, checking sump oil, and looking at sparkplugs under a magnifying glass.
                            stuffed if i know what he is looking at.
                            At the end of the day, the work and tunes he supplies turn out very good.
                            thats service for ya.

                            as we can see 2 of the k04 upgrade that turned up at dyno day got 196 and 200kw on premium fuel
                            the one that got 200kw got 109mph at drag strip, which backs up the power the dyno showed
                            and thats only 1mph under your best time.

                            He is always happy to explain things and technical issues to people, as you can see from him starting this thread, its only trying to explain technically about intercoolers.

                            Then for you to come in on thread the way you did, knowing very well lucas does a lot of testing and research is just a cheap shot.
                            Logging Data etc is one thing. understanding it and knowing what to do is another.
                            I suppose you have a library in you house full of books, but never read let alone understanding one.

                            P.S. the workshop that he has was fully welded and assembled by himself, its about 500sqm with his own hoist!!
                            end rant

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                            • #15
                              Be such a shame that a thread with real technical merit get's closed down because people start reading emotion into it. I for one enjoy the debate, for without people questioning each side, how would we ever progress? How is Guy using the words "please" rude anyhow ???

                              As a pure backyarder, I'd rate the stock IC as fine for normal use, the S3 as the logical step up ( alloy end tanks ), and the APR as the bees knees. There's also the Forge extra front mount option, and they are all GREAT options!

                              Let's all keep on advancing the VW knowledge base eh?
                              2014 Skoda Yeti TDI Outdoor 4x4 | Audi Q3 CFGC repower | Darkside tune and Race Cams | Darkside dump pDPF | Wagner Comp IC | Snow Water Meth | Bilstein B6 H&R springs | Rays Homura 2x7 18 x 8" 255 Potenza Sports | Golf R subframe | Superpro sways and bushings | 034 engine mounts | MK6 GTI brakes |

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