DSG and creeping

[CatonaPC©]

I am reminded of something after I read another post about starting on a slope with the DSG,

On a flat area, if you select D and release the brake so the car creeps slowly forward on it's own, what gear does the DSG slot into?

In mine the MFD indicates 1st but then soon after it switches to 2nd. Is it really in 2nd gear or is just an advice that the car is going to switch to 2nd?

[neil]

I am reminded of something after I read another post about starting on a slope with the DSG,

On a flat area, if you select D and release the brake so the car creeps slowly forward on it's own, what gear does the DSG slot into?

In mine the MFD indicates 1st but then soon after it switches to 2nd. Is it really in 2nd gear or is just an advice that the car is going to switch to 2nd?

I would say it could be in 2nd.
When I drive out my drive front first slight downward slope then stop it says 2nd
when I take off its definitely in secound as it just sounds like someone riding the clutch as you pickup speed.
I knock it into 1st as I feel the motor is laboring to much is 2nd when I first start off.
I only seem to have the problem from my drive, slight slope down then out
onto road and up a slight slope.

[cktsi]

Bearing in mind mine is the 7sp DSG on a petrol engine, I've observed the following.

When creeping forward, my car also goes into D2... when I switch over to the tiptronic and kick down to '1' there is a lurch... this tells me it definitely was in 2nd gear.

I've asked a tech about it before and the reason why it can creep in 2nd is something to do with the fact it's a variable valve timing engine which allows the engine to 'adapt' timing at different points in the rev range. The result is a smoother driving experience.

I'm not sure if the diesel is vvt as well & whether it also contributes to smooth creep in 2nd on the TDI - or whether the smooth creep is just 2nd... but from what I've observed from a petrol 7spd DSG car it really is in 2nd gear

[gerhard]

I haven't observed the GTI to go into 2nd while creeping on closed throttle.

The 7 speeder, and 6 speeder in a diesel, you can kinda see that they would do it.

I'll give it a test for interest's sake.

[logger]

...In mine the MFD indicates 1st but then soon after it switches to 2nd. Is it really in 2nd gear or is just an advice that the car is going to switch to 2nd?

I am not sure as I have not looked, but I expect you should be able to tell by looking at the tacho. Any given RMP/SPEED ratio must relate directly to a specific gear and its associated ratio actually being engaged. (Except when there is slip somewhere of course)

[CatonaPC©]

I am not sure as I have not looked, but I expect you should be able to tell by looking at the tacho. Any given RMP/SPEED ratio must relate directly to a specific gear and its associated ratio actually being engaged. (Except when there is slip somewhere of course)

No, there is no change in the RPM, as I have my foot off the accelerator. Perhaps because of the torque of the TDi, the DSG is set to change into 2nd in creep mode. But that's only a theory. As the DSG uses 1st gear ratio for reverse, what happens then?

[silver32]

Mine creeps forward in 1st always, even takes off in 1st from every stop, but changes to 2nd very soon after take-off. But it is definitely in 1st at creep and take-off as i when I floor it, its already in 1st, no downshift happens. I have the 6-speed DSG in the R32. I would assume if the TDi crept forward in 2nd on a slope, the R32 would too, due to them both having high torque engines?

[logger]

Just checked mine (DSG7) and when in "D" it seems to start off in 2nd gear too when a low torque start on the flat or downhill. Same indication as Rick with D1 then D2 indicated but no change in RPM or perception of a gear Change between the two. While it is still indicating D1 if I flip it to tiptronic a very obvious downshift from 2 to 1 occurs. Clever Stuff.

[cktsi]

Rant on DSG detractors

I am amazed at how smooth the DSG is on slow creep and that it does it in D2, but boy do I have a pet hate.

What really p’s me off are so called expert car reviewers who say the DSG is rough creeping forward in heavy traffic. They don’t appreciate that it’s a proper clutch & not a torque converter. So of course at ultra low speed it will appear jerky as the clutch engages & disengages to avoid stalling the car!

What they don’t realise is in a manual you wouldn’t ride the clutch at ultra slow speeds anyway!! If you wouldn’t do this with a manual clutch, why the heck would you do this with an automated clutch!?!

Their knowledge and expectations are so ignorant & misguided I feel like punching them in the face for so recklessly disinforming the public about the abilities of the DSG. The DSG is completely capable of creeping smoothly at 1-2km/h on inclines & level road, but anything slower is equivalent to riding a clutch.

I've found that by putting a little throttle on a slight incline the DSG quickly transitions from D1 to D2 avoiding the jerkiness.

[gerhard]

Mine creeps off in 1st and changes the dash indicator to 2nd very soon after.

If I then speed up, the next perceptible gearchange is into 3rd.

If I stay creeping and move the lever to manual mode, it shows up as being in 1st, but there is a bit of action which suggests that moving to manual changes back to 1st.

[CatonaPC©]

. . .so called expert car reviewers who say the DSG is rough creeping forward in heavy traffic. They don’t appreciate that it’s a proper clutch & not a torque converter. So of course at ultra low speed it will appear jerky as the clutch engages & disengages to avoid stalling the car!

You make an interesting point. I never looked at it that way, and I'd have to agree with your reasoning. It is true, that there seems to be far too much expectations for this type of transmission.

[logger]

Just checked mine (DSG7) and when in "D" it seems to start off in 2nd gear too when a low torque start on the flat or downhill. Same indication as Rick with D1 then D2 indicated but no change in RPM or perception of a gear Change between the two. While it is still indicating D1 if I flip it to tiptronic a very obvious downshift from 2 to 1 occurs. Clever Stuff.

Plot thickens.. Just hooked up Vag-Com and it contradicts my perception. It most definitely starts of in 1st and not second. There is a heap of telemetrics in there that all pointing to it being in 1st gear:
-Clutch K1 position,
-Driveshaft D1 speed,
-No gear at all being selected on D2 where 2nd lives,
-Gear selector travel distance (gears 1-3) in select position,
-(Gear 2-4) not in either select pos'n, and so on and so on.
Car rolls off with 1N + NN on the drive shafts and this switches to 1N + 2N around the time when MFD "D2" appears. The point at which the gear change actually occurs is imperceptible to the driver and there is a significant period when slip is present in both clutches. Evident by neither D1 or D2 matching engine RPM. In fact it could even be the case that clutch 1 never fully engages and slips to some extent all the way to 2nd in this scenario.
Perhaps the lurch felt when whacking the selector from D1 to 1st (Tiptronic) in this transition phase is the respective clutch aborting the impending gear change and removing all slip on K1. Will look closer and see if I can log and graph it so it is clearer.

[blutopless2]

So of course at ultra low speed it will appear jerky as the clutch engages & disengages to avoid stalling the car!

but wouldn't you call this a flaw in the design of the gearbox? or at least the software that controls it?
I know i do. it is my major pet hate of the dsg as i cant stop it from bunny hopping at low speeds.

[cktsi]

but wouldn't you call this a flaw in the design of the gearbox? or at least the software that controls it?
I know i do. it is my major pet hate of the dsg as i cant stop it from bunny hopping at low speeds.

I'll qualify what I'm about to write by stating that my viewpoint is one of a guy who's being driving manuals all his life.

If the car is moving at ultra low speeds in a manual, it's riding the clutch. It's the only technique to creep really really slowly in a manual, but it's also really no good for the wear of the clutch plates.

Therefore as a manual driver, I try to avoid riding the clutch as much as possible. So in heavy traffic I won't creep slowly like auto drivers will on inclines. On level or declines I will creep slowly (as it's easy to do in neutral) by riding the foot brake.

Coming from this perspective, even with the DSG I want to avoid situations where I'm riding the clutch. In the DSG this shows up as the 'hopping' as you describe.

I'll be lying by saying the 7DSG doesn't do it. It does, but it's in very rare situations where I'm forced to go so slow that i'd be riding the clutch in a manual. So I have had situations where the 7DSG will be bumpy.

But consider this... manual clutch plates need to be replaced every so often depending on the quality of clutch plate & driving style... i've previously had to replace them every 70k or so. VW techs are telling me the clutch plates in the DSG are for life.

My reasoning is the DSG is engaging & disengaging in such a way to avoid clutch plate wear like you find in a manual. So I personally find it amazing that they've been able to come up with a method of actuating clutch plates to avoid/minimise the wear you find in manual plates.

btw.... if someone more tech savvy sees anything wrong with the statement "DSG plates never need replacing for the life of the car" please correct me. I've always been suspicious of this statement, but I reason that i'd get at least 200k from the DSG. I've tried to research about the longevity of the clutch on the DSG, but can only find forum postings about needing to replace the fluid every 80k or so.

In summary, it's not a design flaw... it's intended to stretch the life of the plates beyond those of manual clutch plates. I also think that DSG owners should try to avoid driving in a style that will trigger the thumping - and it maybe easier for former manual drivers to judge when those situations happen because, like me, they don't normally ride the clutch.

If you do find you are constantly in low rev situations that cannot be avoided (e.g. parallel park into tight spot on inclines) whether you have a manual or DSG means you'll always be riding a clutch. In that case for the next car you might have to think about going back to a traditional torque converter.

I believe the Tiguan has no DSG for that very reason. If you take it off road, you will more often be in situations where you require ultra low speeds and the DSG cannot do it by design.

I can think of one sydney suburb where i burned out my clutch plates on an old manual just by driving through there one afternoon... Coogee... I did a hill start, then got that typical burning smell :-P So if you live in coogee & have to do a ton of steep grade hill starts... torque converter is for you.

Perhaps blame the people giving out information about the DSG, but it should not be viewed as equivalent to an auto, rather a clutch system where you don't require a clutch pedal to actuate gear changes... that also happens to be able to shift gears for you as well.

Hopefully my soap box rant has cleared things up a little, but I think there is too little information (or too much disinformation) out there about what the DSG really is about.

Off my high horse

[Wolfman_36]

Stop the hop

but wouldn't you call this a flaw in the design of the gearbox? or at least the software that controls it?
I know i do. it is my major pet hate of the dsg as i cant stop it from bunny hopping at low speeds.

I would suggest that you need to get it looked at. We have 2 DSG cars (GT sport and R36) and neither do this. Our Golf did develop this behaviour from a standing start (when 12 months old, 12000 kms) and after a couple of gearbox resets at the dealer (no signifiicant change, but reportedly fixes some) the Mechatronics was replaced under warranty - all smooth now. The R36 is as smooth as a baby's....