Engineer's certificate for remap ?

[Guy_H]

P.S. -

On the emission testing side of things, there is only one facility available for private hire in the country that can test for "factory" & ADR standard emissions (Its located in VIC).

Not even the local enforcement agencies have access to their own in each state, and DOTARS one in Canberra is only used internally.

It costs about 4k to have a vehicle fully certified as compliant with emission requirements (this is only required when bringing a new car to market).

[Transporter]

P.S. -

On the emission testing side of things, there is only one facility available for private hire in the country that can test for "factory" & ADR standard emissions (Its located in VIC).

Not even the local enforcement agencies have access to their own in each state, and DOTARS one in Canberra is only used internally.

It costs about 4k to have a vehicle fully certified as compliant with emission requirements (this is only required when bringing a new car to market).

About 8 years ago I imported 5Gas gas analyser from Germany which many workshops use for legal testing of the vehicles over there, so it doesn't have to be expensive for government if they take the right steps to address the problem.

[Transporter]

I have to disagree with you on that, all of the states in Australia and all of the resources of the departments of transport & combined police enforcement agencies can not monitor & enforce this to the letter of the law (or anywhere even close) - they have basically zero resources to identify a "remap" of an ECU, measure whp, measure boost.

Insurance companies have more drive, money, and motive to find out if a car has been modified (to the extent where it attributes to an accident), and they hire accident investigators (especially in the case of a large third party compensation claim that can cost them millions).

We have been engaged on 4 occasions by insurance companies to interrogate engine ECU's (and other systems in the car) over the past 6 years.

On each of these occasions, not once was a modification of the ECU investigated - or even questions (they were all high performance turbo Audi's) - in each case, the insurance company wanted to know which key was used to open / start the car & at what time.

This was due to theft, or fraud involving theft.

On one other occasion, we had to retrieve the crash data out of a vehicle (it was a completely stock vehicle) - I think in this case (we didn't have the full details) that the insurance company paid the damage claim, then handed over the data to the Police & had the driver charged with some offence (as the impact data was ~ 140kmph, and it happened in a built up area).

I think if you talk with your local departments on how they enforce these laws, you may get a better understanding of how it works. Once again, the "code of practice" leaves two giant loopholes - Modifying the stock ECU in a car, and modifying an already turbocharged vehicle with a larger turbo.

I always think that everyone has the same technology as I have or access to it.

[The_Hawk]

Has anyone ever quoted a genuine cat ?

Yep, the cat alone on a Mazda 626 I used to own was quoted at $2,500...


Let me try to summarise.

* Pretty much all mods *should* be engineered.
* Reality is it can't be policed effectively, but if there is ever a question, it's up to YOU to get your vehicled checked and cleared. (police unroadworthy sticker)
* Insurance companies generally don't seem to mind mods providing you tell them about them upfront, but technically they *could* call you on your car not meeting ADR's if they wanted to (although for "normal" accidents I don't know of anyone having issues, again providing you have listed all your mods on your policy, but I'm sure there are exceptions) Mind you I'm sure they could try the same arguement on most old cars which would fail ADR simply because of their age...



Firstly I would double check your insurer doesn't have issues with your mods, then if you really want to play it safe, get the certificate. If your keen you could ask the insurer if they require the mods to be certified or not.

[Guy_H]

About 8 years ago I imported 5Gas gas analyser from Germany which many workshops use for legal testing of the vehicles over there, so it doesn't have to be expensive for government if they take the right steps to address the problem.

This is a common tool available at hundreds of places. It does not address the original issue of compliance according to the "code", and enforcement of the code.

How often do you have it calibrated? and which national body would you have calibrate it?

Unfortunately you failed to address measurement of increased horsepower - I'm not sure if you have a dyno that can measure the same thing time & time again, across different states, different operators, different climatic conditions. Everyone has access to them, but their accuracy is maybe + or - 30% ? - That is not what the code tries to address & hence there is the problem of enforcement repeated yet again.

[bazzle]

I think the major issue is not about horsepower but against changing/modifying previously certified or making worse emmissions from said vehicles.

Bazzle

[CatonaPC©]

I once had a situation where I changed my car's wheels from stock 14x5.5 inch to 15x6.5 inch. Before I did so, I checked the relevant Victorian legislation. Basically, it allows one to increase the width of wheels by a maximum of 1 inch provided the resulting track is not increased by more than half an inch. In my case, the new wheels were one inch wider with the same offset as the wheels they replaced. In short, perfectly legal.

I ring up my insurance company and dutifully advised them of the mod which I am required to do. They refused to insure me! Their rules state you can't increase wheel width by 1/2 and inch. No amount of telling them that my car still complied with the rules would sway them. In the end, I ended up insuring with RACV. They were not fussed about the mod.

Modifying a car within allowable regs, or getting your mods signed off by an engineer is fine but getting the resulting modified car (legal or not) insured may be your biggest problem.

[The_Hawk]

You know I thought a little more about his earlier and CatonaPC© has come close to what I was thinking when it comes to standards.


* We all agree there are ADR standards we have to meet.
* When a new car is brought onto the market it is tested to be within the standards.

When you modify a car you are deviating from what the manufacturer had tested and certified, while you may still be within the ADR, how do you prove it?

Common things like wheels look like they have an "allowable" change without a restest required and I would suggest that many other things do too. What I do wonder is if there is an exhaustive list (or even a basic list) of common upgrades/changes and their engineers certificate requirements.

I'm thinking coils, intake, exhaust, turbo, ecu ??

[Transporter]

This is a common tool available at hundreds of places. It does not address the original issue of compliance according to the "code", and enforcement of the code.

How often do you have it calibrated? and which national body would you have calibrate it?

Unfortunately you failed to address measurement of increased horsepower - I'm not sure if you have a dyno that can measure the same thing time & time again, across different states, different operators, different climatic conditions. Everyone has access to them, but their accuracy is maybe + or - 30% ? - That is not what the code tries to address & hence there is the problem of enforcement repeated yet again.

Which dyno has accuracy +30 or -30% ?
If your dyno has accuracy 30% + or - . When you re-flash or chip ECU is your customer happy with + or - 30% from your dyno?
If the vehicle fails emission test it gets defected, why would they have to prove that you have more kW than standard? My gas analyser has 0.01% accuracy or 1ppm volume.

[Guy_H]

Which dyno has accuracy +30 or -30% ?
If your dyno has accuracy 30% + or - . When you re-flash or chip ECU is your customer happy with + or - 30% from your dyno?
If the vehicle fails emission test it gets defected, why would they have to prove that you have more kW than standard? My gas analyser has 0.01% accuracy or 1ppm volume.

Generalising on how the same vehicle can run on the same brand dyno in different places on the same day & the results can vary 30%. Say you have a dyno dynamics dyno with shootout mode (supposed to equalize, but never does) and you tie down the same way. If you add 10nm extra to the tie strap, you can reduce the output of the vehicle by 5 or 10% - that is just one variable of dozens associated with dyno's (and proven multiple times). Simple - this is almost impossible to measure, and more impossible to enforce.

I did not say anything about failing an emission test & and proving KW - two different issues, but both could be included in the "code".

As I mentioned, we have spoken & met with the "rule makers" & "rule enforcers" & have a good understanding of the principal & intent of the "Code" document. I suggest you do likewise & telephone them if you do not believe me or understand what I am saying.

[Guy_H]

I once had a situation where I changed my car's wheels from stock 14x5.5 inch to 15x6.5 inch. Before I did so, I checked the relevant Victorian legislation. Basically, it allows one to increase the width of wheels by a maximum of 1 inch provided the resulting track is not increased by more than half an inch. In my case, the new wheels were one inch wider with the same offset as the wheels they replaced. In short, perfectly legal.

I ring up my insurance company and dutifully advised them of the mod which I am required to do. They refused to insure me! Their rules state you can't increase wheel width by 1/2 and inch. No amount of telling them that my car still complied with the rules would sway them. In the end, I ended up insuring with RACV. They were not fussed about the mod.

Modifying a car within allowable regs, or getting your mods signed off by an engineer is fine but getting the resulting modified car (legal or not) insured may be your biggest problem.

This one is easily enforced as its an easy thing to measure & as I understand it is enforced in all states pretty easily. QLD transport have a written guide on this.

I know for a fact that up here RACQ & NRMA insurance companies are the least "mod" friendly ones. It looks like RACV might be similar.

[Transporter]

Generalising on how the same vehicle can run on the same brand dyno in different places on the same day & the results can vary 30%. Say you have a dyno dynamics dyno with shootout mode (supposed to equalize, but never does) and you tie down the same way. If you add 10nm extra to the tie strap, you can reduce the output of the vehicle by 5 or 10% - that is just one variable of dozens associated with dyno's (and proven multiple times). Simple - this is almost impossible to measure, and more impossible to enforce.

I did not say anything about failing an emission test & and proving KW - two different issues, but both could be included in the "code".

As I mentioned, we have spoken & met with the "rule makers" & "rule enforcers" & have a good understanding of the principal & intent of the "Code" document. I suggest you do likewise & telephone them if you do not believe me or understand what I am saying.

You missed emission problem I know that many vehicles have after exhaust treatment but you still get emissions from the exaust pipe.

[CatonaPC©]

Common things like wheels look like they have an "allowable" change without a restest required . . .

I'm thinking coils, intake, exhaust, turbo, ecu ??

The Victorian regs deal with a few modification issues and states limits. Including lowering; eg you cannot cut coils to lower the car.

[CatonaPC©]

I know for a fact that up here RACQ & NRMA insurance companies are the least "mod" friendly ones. It looks like RACV might be similar.

No, RACV is "mod" friendly. They insured my car without an concerns about the wheels. The modification was noted on the insurance certificate and it didn't affect the premium.

GIO/Suncorp and AAMI have the 1/2 inch wheel widening limit.

[Guy_H]

You know I thought a little more about his earlier and CatonaPC© has come close to what I was thinking when it comes to standards.


* We all agree there are ADR standards we have to meet.
* When a new car is brought onto the market it is tested to be within the standards.

When you modify a car you are deviating from what the manufacturer had tested and certified, while you may still be within the ADR, how do you prove it?

Common things like wheels look like they have an "allowable" change without a restest required and I would suggest that many other things do too. What I do wonder is if there is an exhaustive list (or even a basic list) of common upgrades/changes and their engineers certificate requirements.

I'm thinking coils, intake, exhaust, turbo, ecu ??

This is correct - now one must remember that the ADR standards (in this context) covers NEW VEHICLES COMPLIANCE & CONSTRUCTION and thats where a lot of confusion is. New vehicle compliance is a Federal issue (Commonwealth Law) - the rest, after the vehicle has been sold falls under state law, and thats where the grey area is.

The "code" is not an ADR. The ADR is used as a reference point, and importantly you can not remove or make non functional things that are required by the ADR.

I have been involved in the "Beach Buggy" building (VW Manx buggy & Similar), and also involved in the transition form old buggies to new buggies - a new buggy must meet & exceed certain ADR's, where an original buggy built pre 82' requires next to nothing.

Just for interest sake, this is a list of some of the ADR's that cover that.

http://rvcs-prodweb.dot.gov.au/ADRS.html

Unfortunately I don't think you will find the answer (a common list of vehicle modifications that require certification) - certainly here in QLD we have this lovely brochure from QLD Transport that we keep in the office:

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/ebde8d0521b67c6/Pdf_modification_motor_vehicles2.pdf

I wonder if they have them for the other states?